Double dribble call without even dribbling???

Sharpshooternes

If someone could pull the video from tonight's S. Dakota/Baylor game at 17:25ish in the first half one of the Dakota guys gets called for a double dribble but he never put the ball on the floor.

Camron Rust

Haven't seen the play, but the call is actually "illegal dribble"...which I suppose could happen without it hitting the floor.

stiffler3492

Sharpshooternes wrote
If someone could pull the video from tonight's S. Dakota/Baylor game at 17:25ish in the first half one of the Dakota guys gets called for a double dribble but he never put the ball on the floor.

Tell us a little more about the play until the video gets up?

JetMetFan

SDSU #42 receives pass in the low post and, without dribbling, spins, leaves his feet and attempts a layup. BU #4 comes over in an attempt to block the shot. While SDSU #42 is in the air the ball leaves his hands, he catches it and lands. The L calls an illegal dribble.

BU #4 doesn't appear to have touched the ball but I'm not entirely sure how the ball left SDSU #42's hands...it didn't look like he shot it. He may have lost control on the way up or had it hit him in the head. At any rate, it wasn't an illegal dribble since he never dribbled in the first place.

APG

Camron Rust

That would be an illegal dribble because it never hit the floor as required for a legal dribble.

It could also be a travel, and usually is by most officials.

Either way, it is not legal and could be justified by either rule.

Nevadaref

JetMetFan wrote
SDSU #42 receives pass in the low post and, without dribbling, spins, leaves his feet and attempts a layup. BU #4 comes over in an attempt to block the shot. While SDSU #42 is in the air the ball leaves his hands, he catches it and lands. The L calls an illegal dribble.

BU #4 doesn't appear to have touched the ball but I'm not entirely sure how the ball left SDSU #42's hands...it didn't look like he shot it. He may have lost control on the way up or had it hit him in the head. At any rate, it wasn't an illegal dribble since he never dribbled in the first place.

I just watched the video clip. The official must make a judgment decision on whether the player released the ball purposely or if it accidentally slipped from his grasp. The player may retrieve the latter as it would be a fumble, he may also get the former if it is deemed a try, but not if he simply tossed the ball in order to move to a new location. That ball must strike the floor to be a legal dribble (also needs to be released prior to the pivot being lifted). So the official was correct to signal an illegal dribble here, given that he must have decided upon a deliberate release of the ball.
The NFHS case play used to also say illegal dribble for this, but got altered to a traveling violation by the former editor a couple of years ago.

JugglingReferee

I've called this a travel in the past, as I think that the travel is easier to sell.

It's more difficult to sell what coaches know as a double dribble (rather than the illegal dribble) than a travel.

Scrapper1

Nevadaref wrote
The official must make a judgment decision on whether the player released the ball purposely or if it accidentally slipped from his grasp.

I agree 100%. It looks purposeful to me, and I would also have ruled it illegal. Out of instinct, I probably would have signaled traveling, but I don't have a problem with the illegal dribble signal.

JetMetFan

It's nit picking but I still consider this a double dribble. I think the AR supports it as well.

A.R. 221.
After:
(1) Receiving a pass; or
(2) Ending his/her dribble,
A1 jumps into the air on a try for goal, is contested by B1 and since A1 could not get his/her try for goal off, he/she voluntarily throws the ball to the playing court.
In both (1) and (2), A1 is the first to touch the ball.
RULING: (1) A1 has committed a traveling violation because he/she did not release the ball before picking up his/her pivot foot.
(Rule 9-6 and 4-72.4.b)
(2) A1’s release of the ball, after being airborne, was the start of a second dribble. When A1 touched the ball, he committed a double dribble violation.

I think the key here is the SDSU player never started a dribble so there's no way he could've dribbled illegally in the first place.

I know it's a violation either way but when I found the AR that prompted some more thoughts.

letemplay

So most of you guys actually think, even watching the replay, that the player had intent and purpose to fumble the ball closer towards the basket? To me, WITH the benefit of replay, it appears he either attempted a shot or fumbled trying to shoot and that quite possibly the defender flying by had something to do with it. I mean he puts up a one-footer from 3 feet out? Who plans that move? I feel it was a legal play based on the fact that you are allowed to recover, as another poster says, either the fumble or shot attempt. Is the NCAA ruling here the same as NFHS?

fullor30

letemplay wrote
So most of you guys actually think, even watching the replay, that the player had intent and purpose to fumble the ball closer towards the basket? To me, WITH the benefit of replay, it appears he either attempted a shot or fumbled trying to shoot and that quite possibly the defender flying by had something to do with it. I mean he puts up a one-footer from 3 feet out? Who plans that move? I feel it was a legal play based on the fact that you are allowed to recover, as another poster says, either the fumble or shot attempt. Is the NCAA ruling here the same as NFHS?

Sure looked like he had intent to me......realized because of near block he was coming down with ball and let go. I can't recall ever seeing it in any of my games.

Good call.

Camron Rust

letemplay wrote
So most of you guys actually think, even watching the replay, that the player had intent and purpose to fumble the ball closer towards the basket? To me, WITH the benefit of replay, it appears he either attempted a shot or fumbled trying to shoot and that quite possibly the defender flying by had something to do with it. I mean he puts up a one-footer from 3 feet out? Who plans that move? I feel it was a legal play based on the fact that you are allowed to recover, as another poster says, either the fumble or shot attempt. Is the NCAA ruling here the same as NFHS?

Legal? Really? Travel or Illegal Dribble, I can see points for either, but not legal. I really don't think this was an accidental loss of control. His line to the bucket was cut off and he let go of the ball. Even if it was truly accidental, it doesn't look like it and you'll be a lot better off calling the travel/illegal dribble in this case.

Adam

The illegal dribble call is closer to the rule as it developed, with the now-ancient air dribble. It also adheres to the concept that a player must be holding the ball to travel.

Sharpshooternes

Good explanation fellas. I didn't watch it in slow motion and when I saw it the first time I thought the defender had knocked the ball loose. It is always easier to see when you are on the court than on TV.

BktBallRef

Looks to me like he returns to the floor before he releases the ball.

Either way, TWEET!