loose ball in backcourt
 

Last night...

Partner is three seconds into a ten second count when ball is knocked away by the defense on full court press. Partner drops his count. The ball bounces around in the back court for a good five seconds when it is finally picked up again by the same team deep in their own backcourt. Three seconds later, the dribbler is double teamed and stopped, still in his backcourt.

As new lead (two man) I am helping cover the press from about half court.

Do I call the ten second violation, even though there is no visible count?

Is that your area? Is that your responsibility? j/k :D

Personally, I'm leaving this one alone (especially in the wreck environment) but I would talk to my partner about when the b/c count ends/restarts.

Unfortunately, I think you are right, tref.

Since I didn't have a count, I waited about five more seconds, then made the call. It wasn't a very popular call.

On the other hand, The defense had now held in the backcourt for sixteen seconds. It didn't seem fair to them not to reward their effort.

But I had a credibility problem for the rest of the night, because no one else in the gym (including my partner) understood team control. They all thought I was crazy.

So you are saying the defensive team never gained possession? They just got a hand on a ball or two? Just want to understand what happened.

No. This one is on your partner.

Yes, ball was knocked loose and pin-balled around for a bit, but the defense never gained control.

This one is all on him. Let him eat it if he screws up. I'd rather do that than step on his toes and take the heat the rest of the night for it.

No, I blame this forum. If you guys didn't teach me the rules I wouldn't have these problems. I'd be blissfully ignorant like the rest of the gym. :)

If you were 110% sure, I have no problem with it. Especially since you were 'in the play' at half-court and were engaged verses watching from the opposite endline. I'll reference 1.2.15 of the NFHS Officials Manual.

Now I wouldn't make this call right at 10 seconds, but like you said in the OP, you were at 16 with basically no end in sight, I probably would have done the same. There are 2-3 officials on the court for a reason. That's a normal point in pre-games I am a part of. If something happens in my area and I have a mental lapse, I want my partner(s) to come help. My feelings will not be hurt. Now a 50/50 call is something totally different.

Why would you care about credibility with people that don't understand team control? Personally, I'm not losing sleep over that one. However, if I don't make that backcourt call and that team eventually scored on that possession and they end up winning the game by 1 point, then I would probably have a tougher time sleeping.

IMHO, there is a fine line with letting you're partner eat a non-call verses helping your partner on an obvious foul or violation. And when I say obvious, I mean obvious to any other basketball official that actually knows the rules.

I would not touch this. I have my reasons.

I would never call this. And I might have a word with my partner, but if my partner doesn't know this basic rule then what's he doing on the court to begin with? Probably not going to waste my time unless it is a new official that has an excuse to not know it.

If there's a shot clock, I would absolutely call it based on the time left on the shot clock and point at the shot clock.

There it is.

If you recognize that your partner is not an experienced official, then I can see stepping it up. Similarly, if were the trail, and I instinctively (albeit incorrectly) dropped my count in the backcourt, I'd appreciate my partner having my back like that.

Meanwhile, as already stated, if others don't understand the concept of team control, that's not on you.

My problem is this: What if *I* decided that there was a change in team control in the backcourt and then you as the lead come up and tell me it's a 10-second violation?

I'd leave. It. Alone.

I'm going based on what is in the OP which says 'the ball was bouncing around and then controlled again by the same team '. What you're 'what if-ing' is something closer to a 50/50 and not 'obvious', thus I'd agree with you.

However, in this case, at least from how the play was described, I'd say it was obvious that team control had not changed, thus a partner that was fully engaged on the play should help his/her partner.

Visible Count ...
 

No. There must be a visible count. When the coach looks at the video the next day, and doesn't see your visible count, he's going to hit the ceiling. When he comes back down to the ground, his next step is a call to your assigner.

Perhaps, but is the counter on the DVD player not enough to justify 16 seconds in the b/c

Two Wrongs Do Not Make A Right ...
 

Rulebook says that there must be a visible count. Two wrongs don't make a right, and no matter how right the wrong is, it's still two wrongs. I would rather explain one screwup to my assigner than two screwups.

This was my thinking as well. A 10 second backcourt call is not a game saving call. It's not an elephant.

BillyMac I hear ya! FTR, Im laying off this one as well.

If Team B is down by 1 with under 20 seconds to play, does the misconception of t/c turn this sitch into an elephant?

This is pretty much the essence of my original question. By rule, does the absence of a visual count mean there cannot be a ten second violation?

no

Exactly.... For example, "Coach, the clock was at 5:50 when you inbounded the ball, the clock is now at 5:34 and the ball still has backcourt status, with no change in team control." Put that in your video and smoke it......

Another tip RSL, get the time from the GAME CLOCK on change in possession. That is all you need to resolve 10-second violations, shot clock discrepencies, etc.

+1
Whoop there it is!

I would have to be looking at a lot of stuff I shouldn't be looking at in order to be absolutely certain that no one from the other team momentarily gained possession (in my partner's opinion). Clearly if I am THAT focused on everything that's going on with the ball, then we have 4 eyes on the ball, and someone isn't looking where they're supposed to be looking. Regardless, I am not making a 10 second call from that position.

I respect that Smitty.

But I really think FOV needs to be clarified or redfined! To some FOV seems to mean tunnel vision while others tend to believe FOV means officiating your PCA while still being cognizant of what else is going on on the court.
I believe that exceptional officials tend to chew bubble gum & walk at the same time, while decent/good officials just chew bubble gum.

I certainly understand what you're saying. But this is similar (to me) to me being lead in the frontcourt and player A1 makes a pass from my primary back out to a teammate behind the 3 point line and the pass appears to me to be untouched as it goes into the backcourt where it is picked up by A2. I am 99% sure no one has touched it, but my partner does not call a backcourt violation. Am I going to blow my whistle from lead? No. This is the same kind of play to me. I may be convinced otherwise if there is more argument, but I just don't feel comfortable making this call from C or new L (2-man).

I can dig it! Those are tough situations to provide help on. Now, if the game is on the line I'm sure you would do whats right for the game.

Again, I'm not touching it - especially if there has been some skirmish for the ball where it's even remotely possible my partner, who is primary on this play, may consider B to have gained momentary control. We are going back and forth, so I will just leave it at that. For now. :)

+1

I don't think one can do this in NCAA -- and possibly NF either. (I recall a past NCAA interprtation that specifically stated an official's error in counting seconds could not be resolved by time elapsed on the game clock, unless a new interpretation has been issued in recent years).

NCAA ten-second A.R.
 

Correct. I'm astounded by the number of officials in this thread recommending to use the game or shot clocks. The official must count!
That is not to say that one can't use the clocks to help guide your count and increase its accuracy, but an official can't just go by what is on the clocks without a physical count. That's not allowed by rule.


5.10.1 SITUATION B:

their backcourt with 12 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. A1's throw-in

pass is to A2 who dribbles in the backcourt until the horn sounds. The trail official
does not make a 10-second call because he/she "lost the count."

game is over. The clock may not be reset as there are no rule provisions to do

this. If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There
is no provision for the correction of an error made in the official's accuracy in

counting seconds.