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just another ref Sun Mar 04, 2012 01:39am
State Tourney
 
Went to watch some state semifinals today.

Girls 3A, last 2 minutes, 20 point spread or so, substitutes are in. White team inbounds against pressure, pass sails out of bounds near the division line, touched by no one. Lead whistles, retrieves the ball, and rolls it back to the end line, and takes his position as the new trail. Official on the end lines inbounds............ to white again. Officials at the division line whistles, points emphatically, and declares black ball.


Boys 4A, start of the 4th quarter. Official whistles before the ball is put in play, and leads 10 over to the bench, pointing out blood on his jersey. After a brief conversation, the coach walks down the bench, points and gestures to 33. "Don't do it, kid," I thought. But I was the only one. Both players quickly stripped off their jerseys. 33 never got off the bench, and remained there wearing his undershirt. 10 wore no undershirt, and actually walked back across the middle of the court bare-chested as he straightened out the 33 jersey before putting it on, so it's not like there was any chance that all this went unnoticed.

Don't sweat the small stuff?:eek:

La Rikardo Sun Mar 04, 2012 02:34am
Was watching state tourney semis on Friday with a few varsity officials. Three or four minutes left in the game, White leads by ten or so, but Red is pushing for a comeback. White has an AP throw-in. Before White throws the ball in, Red fouls a White player. Everyone went to the other end to shoot the one and one and I noticed that the arrow was incorrectly switched to Red! I waited for a minute to see if the officials noticed, and then I pointed it out to the people I was watching the game with. I was shocked to find that I was the only person who noticed the error. Luckily, White kept their lead and won the game and more importantly, there were no more AP throw-ins for the rest of the game, but if Red had made a comeback and they'd had to go to the arrow, I don't think anyone would've realized that it should've been White's arrow!

JetMetFan Sun Mar 04, 2012 06:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 829544)
Went to watch some state semifinals today.

Girls 3A, last 2 minutes, 20 point spread or so, substitutes are in. White team inbounds against pressure, pass sails out of bounds near the division line, touched by no one. Lead whistles, retrieves the ball, and rolls it back to the end line, and takes his position as the new trail. Official on the end lines inbounds............ to white again. Officials at the division line whistles, points emphatically, and declares black ball.


Boys 4A, start of the 4th quarter. Official whistles before the ball is put in play, and leads 10 over to the bench, pointing out blood on his jersey. After a brief conversation, the coach walks down the bench, points and gestures to 33. "Don't do it, kid," I thought. But I was the only one. Both players quickly stripped off their jerseys. 33 never got off the bench, and remained there wearing his undershirt. 10 wore no undershirt, and actually walked back across the middle of the court bare-chested as he straightened out the 33 jersey before putting it on, so it's not like there was any chance that all this went unnoticed.

Don't sweat the small stuff?:eek:
Brain lock in the state semis? Ugh.

Adam Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:45pm
I didn't go, but my partner for Sat's ms games told me he'd been up to watch Great Eight games Friday night.

1. Jump ball, 6-9 vs 6-1. Toss goes up, 6-9 player seems somewhat confused by toss, ends up tapping it twice. Ball then bounces on the floor before 6-9 grabs it. Officials call a violation on 6-9.

2. Intentional foul on made basket. Officials award one FT and the ball.

Rich Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 829612)
I didn't go, but my partner for Sat's ms games told me he'd been up to watch Great Eight games Friday night.

1. Jump ball, 6-9 vs 6-1. Toss goes up, 6-9 player seems somewhat confused by toss, ends up tapping it twice. Ball then bounces on the floor before 6-9 grabs it. Officials call a violation on 6-9.

2. Intentional foul on made basket. Officials award one FT and the ball.
This wouldn't surprise me in the least, especially in places where the almighty coach's ratings determines who gets to work. The coaches don't know the rules and would still rate these officials well, probably,

BillyMac Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:55pm
Glass Half Full, Glass Half Empty ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 829612)
Intentional foul on made basket. Officials award one FT and the ball.
They got it half right.

bainsey Sun Mar 04, 2012 02:03pm
State title game last night. Roughly two minutes left, A-33 (whose team has a healthy lead) gets a steal, dunks the ball, and mouths off to B-32. New trail is right there for the T.

A-45 (who had his warm-up shirt on, don't know actual number) comes off the bench to do a celebratory body bump with A-33. I immediately look to see if the crew does anything about it. They don't. Can't say that I blame them (and my son's team is the losing team on this night).

wfd21 Sun Mar 04, 2012 03:09pm
Hey Bainsey, Your spot on. I saw this but it didn't dawn on me. This could have been another "T". But I don't know if I would have had the "NADS" to issue it. Was a good game though. :D

Adam Sun Mar 04, 2012 04:12pm
How far onto the court?

JRutledge Sun Mar 04, 2012 04:33pm
I do not know why we act like officials at that level are perfect. They make mistakes too guys.

Peace

Rich Sun Mar 04, 2012 07:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 829687)
I do not know why we act like officials at that level are perfect. They make mistakes too guys.

Peace
Some of these mistakes they *shouldn't* make, though.

JRutledge Sun Mar 04, 2012 07:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 829708)
Some of these mistakes they *shouldn't* make, though.
True, but they are human. And there is a lot of pressure at those games and at the high school level there is not a lot of preparation for those events. Mistakes are going to happen. The key is to limit them.

Peace

Rich Sun Mar 04, 2012 07:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 829710)
True, but they are human. And there is a lot of pressure at those games and at the high school level there is not a lot of preparation for those events. Mistakes are going to happen. The key is to limit them.

Peace
My point on the intentional foul is that it requires *three* officials to screw that up. I'm not talking judgment, here.

I know that if I'm working the game, I'm coming in and making sure this is done right. I've called 2 INT fouls on made baskets in the last 5 years (one of the players is now playing at Tennessee and had a heckuva game yesterday against Vandy) and while the opposing coach was left scratching his head, I know I got the call correct.

3 officials getting this wrong is really inexcusable.

JRutledge Sun Mar 04, 2012 07:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 829713)
3 officials getting this wrong is really inexcusable.
Totally agree. But the pressure of the situation makes a lot of people less effective. That mistake is certainly bigger than other mistakes, but just saying they will and are going to happen no matter how they are picked to work those games.

Peace

just another ref Sun Mar 04, 2012 08:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 829544)
Girls 3A, last 2 minutes, 20 point spread or so, substitutes are in. White team inbounds against pressure, pass sails out of bounds near the division line, touched by no one. Lead whistles, retrieves the ball, and rolls it back to the end line, and takes his position as the new trail. Official on the end lines inbounds............ to white again. Officials at the division line whistles, points emphatically, and declares black ball.


Boys 4A, start of the 4th quarter. Official whistles before the ball is put in play, and leads 10 over to the bench, pointing out blood on his jersey. After a brief conversation, the coach walks down the bench, points and gestures to 33. "Don't do it, kid," I thought. But I was the only one. Both players quickly stripped off their jerseys. 33 never got off the bench, and remained there wearing his undershirt. 10 wore no undershirt, and actually walked back across the middle of the court bare-chested as he straightened out the 33 jersey before putting it on, so it's not like there was any chance that all this went unnoticed.
My question was whether both of these entire crews were unaware of the applicable rule or chose to ignore it? (the second thing seems more likely to me)

Or do you yield to the guy responsible for/closest to the screwup?

The new (shoulda been) trail killed the play and declared "Black ball." I can certainly see stopping and having a discussion about this one.

But if my partner leads the kid with the bloody jersey to the bench and the removal takes place literally right under his nose, it is more difficult to imagine calling this from across the court.

bainsey Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 829680)
How far onto the court?
I had to look at it again. (I love the DVR.) It was a close-up shot, so it was hard to judge, but I'd say 5-10 feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wfd21
Hey Bainsey... I saw this but it didn't dawn on me.
There's another one from that game just dawned on me, too. Remember this?

Third quarter, 6:31 left, A-40 commits a common foul near B's endline, but it's reported as A-10, his fourth foul. B doesn't score on the possession.

As A brings the ball back the other way, A-10 releases a pass near the division line, then, at 6:03, crashes into B-4 for a team control foul. That makes five fouls for A-10, who takes a seat without incident.

Coach A insists the previous foul was on A-40, and after a minute of conferring, the crew credits the foul correctly, thereby making A-10 eligible again. It was an unusual sequence, but in the end, the right call was made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I do not know why we act like officials at that level are perfect.
You're right, JRut, perfection is unattainable. However, in the eyes of us lesser respected officials, we see the tournament and championship-game officials as those we need to emulate. We begin to believe that we need to do exactly what they do to achieve the respect they've earned.

In truth, we shouldn't be looking solely at the mistakes, but they're the things that come most easily to mind. Ultimately, we should probably break down the entire body of work that pinpoints their effectiveness, in contrast with the rest of ours. In other words, ask what separates the championship official from the pack.

berserkBBK Mon Mar 05, 2012 03:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 829643)
State title game last night. Roughly two minutes left, A-33 (whose team has a healthy lead) gets a steal, dunks the ball, and mouths off to B-32. New trail is right there for the T.

A-45 (who had his warm-up shirt on, don't know actual number) comes off the bench to do a celebratory body bump with A-33. I immediately look to see if the crew does anything about it. They don't. Can't say that I blame them (and my son's team is the losing team on this night).
By rule would we assess the TF to A-45 or A-33?
Thinking about it. A-45 for leaving the bench area? A-33 is equally at fault for the bump. I haven't really thought of this situation.

JetMetFan Mon Mar 05, 2012 05:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 829764)
I had to look at it again. (I love the DVR.) It was a close-up shot, so it was hard to judge, but I'd say 5-10 feet.


There's another one from that game just dawned on me, too. Remember this?

Third quarter, 6:31 left, A-40 commits a common foul near B's endline, but it's reported as A-10, his fourth foul. B doesn't score on the possession.

As A brings the ball back the other way, A-10 releases a pass near the division line, then, at 6:03, crashes into B-4 for a team control foul. That makes five fouls for A-10, who takes a seat without incident.

Coach A insists the previous foul was on A-40, and after a minute of conferring, the crew credits the foul correctly, thereby making A-10 eligible again. It was an unusual sequence, but in the end, the right call was made.


You're right, JRut, perfection is unattainable. However, in the eyes of us lesser respected officials, we see the tournament and championship-game officials as those we need to emulate. We begin to believe that we need to do exactly what they do to achieve the respect they've earned.

In truth, we shouldn't be looking solely at the mistakes, but they're the things that come most easily to mind. Ultimately, we should probably break down the entire body of work that pinpoints their effectiveness, in contrast with the rest of ours. In other words, ask what separates the championship official from the pack.
We're not infallible but there are some things we shouldn't mess up, pressure or not. As Rich pointed out, it took three people to kick the one-shot IF situation.

bainsey Mon Mar 05, 2012 09:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by berserkBBK (Post 829803)
By rule would we assess the TF to A-45 or A-33?
Thinking about it. A-45 for leaving the bench area?
A-45, as he came off the bench without permission.

tref Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 829713)
My point on the intentional foul is that it requires *three* officials to screw that up. I'm not talking judgment, here.

I know that if I'm working the game, I'm coming in and making sure this is done right. I've called 2 INT fouls on made baskets in the last 5 years (one of the players is now playing at Tennessee and had a heckuva game yesterday against Vandy) and while the opposing coach was left scratching his head, I know I got the call correct.

3 officials getting this wrong is really inexcusable.
Had the same situation on a game Saturday, kid scores on a fastbreak & gets shoved in the back. I call the INT foul from C & tell the L (R) what we have... the T comes in & says we should be shooting 1 because the basket went :eek:

As JRut stated the pressure is increased this time of year & I agree. But pressure bursts pipes, rise to the occasion.

Raymond Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref (Post 829869)
Had the same situation on a game Saturday, kid scores on a fastbreak & gets shoved in the back. I call the INT foul from C & tell the L (R) what we have... the T comes in & says we should be shooting 1 because the basket went :eek:

As JRut stated the pressure is increased this time of year & I agree. But pressure bursts pipes, rise to the occasion.
To me, there are just some mistakes you shouldn't be making at this time of the year. And not properly giving 2 free throws on an Intentional Foul is definitely one of them. There is just no way that all 3 members of a post-season crew can have the same brain fart.

tref Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:22am
^^ I agree but it all depends on how one got there. Did we work hard & earn it or are we boys with the decision makers :rolleyes:

Adam Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by berserkBBK (Post 829803)
By rule would we assess the TF to A-45 or A-33?
Thinking about it. A-45 for leaving the bench area? A-33 is equally at fault for the bump. I haven't really thought of this situation.
Having just called one on 33, I'm giving the second one to 45 in this case.

Adam Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 829872)
To me, there are just some mistakes you shouldn't be making at this time of the year. And not properly giving 2 free throws on an Intentional Foul is definitely one of them. There is just no way that all 3 members of a post-season crew can have the same brain fart.
That's what bugs me, too. I can understand mistakes, errors in judgment, missed calls, etc. I can understand fixing an error that isn't correctable. I can understand waving off a shooting foul. I can even understand the violation called on the jump ball when the jumper catches it after it bounces.

I have a harder time when basic rules are screwed up. Assigning a six-player T to the coach. Calling a travel on a caught air ball. Not giving the right number of FTs.

JeroenB Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:09am
I didn't read through the entire conversation, but did I get it correct that under US rules (college/HS) the number of freethrows awarded for an intentional foul is always two?

Rich Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeroenB (Post 829898)
I didn't read through the entire conversation, but did I get it correct that under US rules (college/HS) the number of freethrows awarded for an intentional foul is always two?
Unless it's on a 3-point attempt, then it's 3.

Raymond Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 829901)
Unless it's on a 3-point attempt, then it's 3.
Just to be anal :D

On a missed 3-pt attempt it's 3 free throws. A made 3-pointer would only get 2 free throws.

Adam Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeroenB (Post 829898)
I didn't read through the entire conversation, but did I get it correct that under US rules (college/HS) the number of freethrows awarded for an intentional foul is always two?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 829901)
Unless it's on a missed 3-point attempt, then it's 3.
Fixed it for you. :D

Rich Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 829907)
Fixed it for you. :D
I don't know whether to be grateful or annoyed. :rolleyes:

Raymond Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 829907)
Fixed it for you. :D
But not fast enough. :cool:

Adam Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 829909)
But not fast enough. :cool:
yeah, and I'm the one who annoys him. :D

Adam Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 829908)
I don't know whether to be grateful or annoyed. :rolleyes:
It's ok to be both.

berserkBBK Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 829851)
A-45, as he came off the bench without permission.
Thank you. After thinking about it, I thought this it what it would be.

spaulds Mon Mar 05, 2012 01:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 829643)
State title game last night. Roughly two minutes left, A-33 (whose team has a healthy lead) gets a steal, dunks the ball, and mouths off to B-32. New trail is right there for the T.

A-45 (who had his warm-up shirt on, don't know actual number) comes off the bench to do a celebratory body bump with A-33. I immediately look to see if the crew does anything about it. They don't. Can't say that I blame them (and my son's team is the losing team on this night).
Quote:
Originally Posted by wfd21 (Post 829667)
Hey Bainsey, Your spot on. I saw this but it didn't dawn on me. This could have been another "T". But I don't know if I would have had the "NADS" to issue it. Was a good game though. :D
I wondered about this too...and about A-33's salute in between getting called for the technical and A45 coming out to chest bump him. I recorded the game and just rewatched this part and it is hard to tell how far on the court A-45 came out, but it looked like they were maybe around 5' from the lane...tough to tell.

On a side note. I just finished my first year officiating. Ive been coming to this forum almost every day to learn from all of you. Thank you all for the info and rules citations in your discussions. Many of the discussions here helped me through the season.


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