Slow season coming - rule changes?
 

Well, as we all know, it's just about the end of the season. I have two more weekends of my local kids rec league games and then nothing until a spring kids rec league starts in mid-April. I really don't know what to do till then except wait to see any rule changes for next season. Having said that, maybe we can make this a thread for NF rule change suggestions.

I'll start. AP throw-in. If the offensive team commits a foul, they keep the arrow. If they commit a throw-in violation, they lose the arrow. I think it should be one way or the other in both instances. A pretty minor point, but it seems it would make it easier to remember and it does seem equitible.

OK - who's next?

Drop the 10 second count for FT.

It's a complete waste of time.

Disagree. Without it, teams would have unlimited time outs.

No timeouts left? No problem...take your time at the line!

What about all player unsportsmanlike technical fouls also counting as indirect technicals against the HC? Shouldn't he (or she) have the same responsibility for the behavior of players on the floor as on the bench? Really, what's the difference? As it stands now, there's more of a total penalty if a player misbehaves on the bench vs. him (or her) misbehaving on the court. The player could exhibit the exact same behavior and the strength of the penalty depends on where the player was occupying space at the time.

The difference is, the coach isn't within a few feet to tell the kid to shut up.

You can't blame the coach for everything.

Gotta admit, I like it how it is currently for the same reason.

Then how about an indirect on the parent? :rolleyes:

Iowa rule. 35 point differential rule for girls. Running clock. Not just for boys.

OK, I'm not promoting this one, but.......
 

There's two guys with whom I work who would like to see the clock stop after a basket in the last minute of a game if the point differential is under 10.

They mentioned this after they worked a game in which a team scored with just under five seconds left to cut their deficit to one point and the other team didn't go to the ball and let the clock run out. My response to them telling me this was "So what? It's part of the game. They could have requested a timeout immediately after the ball went through the hoop". (I asked and they said the team was out of timeouts, and taking the T for requesting one would not really have helped)

If this ever passes, good luck working with the timekeepers on it.

Believe it or not, this is the first change I'd put in place if I was king. Too many time, there's timing issues when timeouts are called after made baskets in the last minute of a tightly contested game. I *love* the NCAA rule.

I disagree as well. We would see teams take much longer if they knew they had no time limit. At least now they know they have a time limit and it usually is not a big deal, but I would not all it a waste of time.

Peace

We have a 30 point rule that only applies to the 4th Quarter in tournament games before February starts. I would not want to see such a rule for boys games at all during non-post season games. Games do not take that long and it gives coaches a chance to play kids that have not played without taking away their time. Games do not take that long either way it goes.

Peace

I agree as well. Far easier imo, for timekeeper to shut clock off after made basket then it is for them to know when to try to get it stopped in that hectic few seconds when a coach is screaming for the TO. Timekeeper probably hears it in some cases when official does not, but cannot stop it until seeing/hearing a signal. I've seen a lot of confusing situations this would remedy. I'm ready to vote now:)

Hey - here's a thought
 

Maybe the NF should just adopt the rules from my local kids rec league 3rd/4th grade level. All games would then be running clock, no coaching box, up to 5 seconds in the lane allowed, free throws shot from a line two feet shorter, baskets are at 9 feet, no 5 second closely guarded count, no back court guarding and no zone defenses. Let me tell you, there's relatively few fouls and the games go by really quickly.

Of course we still don't allow dunking during warmups. :D

I forgot one rule we have in our kids rec league that would be a terrific one to have in the NF. Any profanity by a player or coach is an automatic flagrant technical and includes ejection. We've had this happen a very few times per season, but in the vast majority of seasons it hasn't happened at all. Of course, we go over it in our pre-season coaches meeting.

Oh hell no.

If NF ever decided to go that route, all you'd guarantee is officials wouldn't enforce the rule. Plus unless NFHS gives a list of what is considered profane, profanity is going to vary from official to official. There's no problem with the rule, as is, right now.

No there is not. If we did what was suggested people would get thrown out for words that are blocked on this site that do not offend but a few people. Then there would be a debate every game what was profane. Also I expect older kids to say things that younger kids should not say. It is the reality and we potentially could have 18 year olds on games, so that would be silly to have an across the board rule IMO.

Peace

1. Allow the option of taking the ball out of bounds rather than shooting free throws for fouls; OR, at least, allow this option in the last 2 minutes of each half.

2. 2 halves. There is simply no need for 4 quarters.

3. Either: a) return to the bonus at 5 fouls (1 and 1), 2 shots at 7 fouls, and 3 shots at 10 fouls, or b) eliminate the 1 and 1 and go 2 shots at 7 and 3 at 10. In the past, I've said 2 shots and the ball at 10, but 3 shots is a decent compromise.

4. Mandate 3 officials for all HS games. Allow state associations to submit waiver requests based on funding only.

5. Eliminate state waivers for coaches box.

6. Return to FT release as ending lane restrictions.

With you here.[/QUOTE]

Or, if enough people call it, any profane or borderline profane behavior would largely stop. Players only say things they do because someone allows them to do so.

That is the problem, what is borderline profane? I know people that get offended if you say "G0D D@am" and others that do not believe in God would not be offended. So who defines what that line is? I do not see the NF doing anything like that because there are language usage that are different from one area to another. And I doubt all older people are aware of every slang, euphemism or double entendre that is used in different areas as well.

Peace

There are also some cultural words that may offend or be known by some officials that are not known by others.

Or how about a game in which both teams are proficient in Spanish but only 1 of the 3 officials speaks Spanish?

We already have the tools to handle profanity and unacceptable language. It always going to come down to judgment and what is or isn't acceptable in the area you work.

Minnesota has a 35-point rule for all games beginning with 9 minutes to go at the end of the game. It is a good rule. Coaches can get all their players in. Where it helps is bad feelings seem to be reduced.

Iowa 35 point rule for boys only enforced in 2nd half and if it dips below 25pts then resume timing as normal. And i agree with earlier statement that it should be for GIRLS and probably not boys. 2 different unions, 2 different rules. what'ya going to do.

CO, JV only by conference adoption.

It doesn't matter that some portion of officials are trash mouths and don't find a problem with profanity. If enough people called it, it wouldn't matter. The rest would even hear it for it to be an issue because the players would learn not to push the issue.
Yes, we don't need a rules change, we just need officials to address it rather than sweep it under the rug so they can avoid making an unpopular decision.

Being someone that works games in the city or with city teams (regardless of race BTW), I find it funny how there are certain officials (usually suburban officials) that cannot even identify certain comments, actions or body language that to officials like me clearly identify or address and others are oblivious to. It is much more than language or specific words.


A lot of officials cannot identify things to even address them. When you have never been in a culture or exposed yourself in social situation, you often would have no idea what to do if you have little exposure to it. Like I said before, not all offensive language are the words we think they are and not all actions or things that get a reaction are the same either.

Peace

You know what might make a good poll here - should the FED switch to 16 minute halves instead of quarters. I would support that.

Being desensitized to bad language (verbal and otherwise) because you're around it so much doesn't mean it is ok.

I mentioned in another string somewhere that NYC Public Schools adopted a "no tolerance" rule regarding profanity in the 2010-11 season. During our preseason meeting a number of officials were "concerned," to say the least. Some of their questions:

*What if a player swears at a teammate?
*What if a player misses a shot and curses out loud to himself?
*What if a player curses after making a bad pass?

Every question was met with the same answer: "What does 'zero tolerance' mean?"

I have to say, two years in, I like the rule. The kids adjusted very fast. Eliminating calls where I gave a T to a kid/coach for swearing at an opponent or me I'd say I've called 15 or so.

As for the cultural aspect of things, I don't buy it. Black (which I am), White, Brown or Other the kids will respond if you set a boundary and hold to it. We remind them in the pregame swearing isn't allowed (I also tell them that includes the "N" word). If we bang the first one to do it, anyone who didn't understand gets with the program fast.

It is about not identifying it. There are more words than the "F" or "S" word. And not everyone agrees that the "D" word is profanity either.

Peace

It doesn't matter. If we were told to just call it and all officials simply call it, it will go away and there will be no discussion. Officials wouldn't have to agree on what was profane.

That would be inconsistent, and I don't want to say what words are unexceptable at every pre game coaches/captains meeting. One game a kid yells "darn" it after he misses a free throw and doesn't get a T because no one sees it as profane. Next game he says it and gets whacked by the offended official. Or even worse, a partner whacks him the next time down when he gets beat and gives up an easy dunk and says the same thing.

You cannot expect people to call something when we all cannot agree what it is that is profane.

Peace

You're completely missing the point. It is not about what YOU or another official feels is profane. Everyone know what the words are....even if you try to make an argument that some people may disagree that they are profane, they still know which words everyone is talking about.

You don't have to get people to agree they profane anymore than you have to convince someone that doing a chin-up on the rim is unsportsmanlike. Just as long as everyone calls the T when they see the chin-up, it works out.

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right direction most of the time, not be complete carbon copies.

Not at all....at least no more than anything else we call. Does everyone call handchecking exactly the same way? No. It doesn't have to be an absolutely clear line. The kids will learn to stay away from the boundaries because they will know the risk. If you want to improve character and sportsmanship, you only need to push it in the right directly, not be completely carbon copies.

Usually what you'll have is someone who, themselves, uses profane vocabulary and will refuse to call it because they'd be hypocritical of their own actions in doing so.....“Profanity is a Weak Mind Trying to Express Itself Forcibly”.

Everyone? So you understand language that inner city kids might say to each other that are not the common words? And I gave you an example that some people that are religious get upset by and those not so religious or a different belief system never get upset by.

You are looking for a one size fits all standard which will never happen even if they spell it out. And honestly I could give a darn what "everyone" does when everyone is not in the same circumstances. I do not work in your state, so what they do there is your business not mine. And you probably not being African-American might not allow you to understand some things that would be said amongst them that would be seen as offensive to me or why it would be offensive. That is why when officials are assigned to many games it is based on their background and understanding of their circumstances. I get it, you want a T called for these things, but then you will still have people that will call a T for things you would not agree with and that is the problem. And this is why there will never be a defined standard that everyone will agree with.

Peace

Words are just that. A kid using a profanity because he missed a shot isn't the same thing as directing a profanity at another player or official.

While I agree with that 100%, I generally apply that same consideration when I hear inappropriate language, there is no reason a blanket ban on commonly considered profane words couldn't work.


(And I'm not actually promoting such an idea, just discounting the reasons a few others are claiming why it couldn't/wouldn't work).

"I can't define it but i know it when i hear it." - Justice Potter Stewart.

Again, it doesn't matter....whether you or other are offended or not or whether there are cryptic neighborhood jargon that is only locally known, you could easily effectively and completely eliminate all of the common words that large groups of people consider profane. For the local slang, the officials could easily be asked to cover those too if they recognize it. If they don't know it, what does that matter? Someone could, in anyone of your games call you the worst thing you've ever heard in Chinese and you'd not have a clue. It doesn't mean you should let all of the stuff you do understand go.

Non religious people know words that religious people don't like and the only real reason to still use them is to shove it in their face.....those words actually only come from religious contexts as they mean absolutely nothing outside of it....so those words only express something when considered religiously. If you're not religious, why invoke religious language.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to put multiple quotes in responses.

As I mentioned before I am Black and I officiate in the NYC public schools. I've worked those games for about 20 years and I also work in Hudson County, NJ. To say those are heavily ethnic areas would be an understatement. There's certain slang you'll hear when moving from neighborhood to neighborhood but there are some words which are used in every community. Those are the words you adjudicate, regardless of whether people think it's proper to use them in their 'hood. If there are words/phrases you don't understand then you don't deal with them but you also ask around so the next time the term comes up you know whether it can become an issue.

As for "language inner city kids might say that are not the common words," I just tell them they're not being used in my game that day. That's why in an earlier post I said in my PSAL pregame I tell kids the no profanity mandate includes the N-word. I'm perfectly aware kids in certain neighborhoods use that on a regular basis but if I set the standard from the start it's not a problem. As I said before, there are profane words which transcend cultures. Those are forbidden in every game and the kids know that. Once they get out of the habit of using those, the others which may not be as cross-cultural start going away as well.

Also, there are cultural habits which have already been dealt with in the NFHS rule book. Remember the "Fab 5" and wearing your shorts below your waist or your jersey outside your shorts? 3-3-5. Frayed t-shirts under your jersey? 3-5-6. Wristband on your bicep? 3-5-4c. The time-honored tradition of trash talking? 10-3-6c. I'm sure 10-3-6g - the smokeless tobacco rule - falls in there somewhere as well.

As Camron said, if we enforce them the kids adjust...the same way they adjust to the way we call contact, hand checks, etc. If a kid uses one of the well-known words, gets a T and asks us why, we tell them they can't use it durnig the game. Either they'll stop or they won't play.

I can see that, but I guess I would want a clear line. While you say that the kids would avoid boundaries, I could see it working. I guess I don't see the point. If cursing is said in frustration to themselves I often just say "Watch the language, please" as I walk by. If it is said loud enough, and again only venting to themselves, I will make it known to everyone I am speaking with the player. It never gets worse afterwards. I just wouldn't want these to be a definitive T as it can be taken care of with a quick statement. Now if it was directed at the other team, the crowd, a partner, or myself, I would not hesititate. And even that does not have to be a curse word.

I have worked with a few religious and well educated people that used profanity in the locker room and quietly to me away from players, coaches, and fans. Usually this was used to vent frustration from a coach or a play they may have missed. While I don't use profanity, I am not offended by it unless it is directed at anyone. I smile when a player yells replacement words instead of a curse word. However, people still know what he meant.

Sound like we run it the same way....and as I said before, I'm not the one pushing for or arguing FOR this change. I'm just pointing that the reason that have been present for opposing it are not really valid.

My rule changes:

1) Timeouts can only be called by players on the court.

2) Adopt the NCAA timing rule so the clock stops for a made basket with under a minute left in the game.

3) Switch from 8 minute quarters to 16 minute halves.

That's really splitting hairs IMO.......How can you say that you play 31 minutes w/o a stop clock and suddenly enforce this in the last minute?? And how would you determine what the point spread should be for the clock to stop?

We have a 30 point mercy rule in GHSA...Cut from 8 minutes to 6 minutes in the 4th quarter if the lead is 30 or more. Suppose the lead is 28 after 3 qtrs, and the first play in the 4th quarter makes it a 30 point game....Why not enforce the mercy rule at that point (which we don't do)? There are just so many variables that could be changed to make the game more "fair" or "fan friendly". You can't get away from subjectivity no matter what you do........
I have no answers, just opinions, as the rest of us do. :confused:

Usually the way I do it and problems tend to stop. I talk to players all the time about their behavior if they are borderline and they know where I stand.

Peace

another rule change suggestion
 

I guess this would be for both FED and NCAA. How about eliminating the ability to inbound into the back court on a throw in after the ball has been advanced to the front court?

And/or - eliminating both the 10 second back court count and the five second closely guarded count in games that have a shot clock. Having all those counts seems redundant.

votes
 

Agree:
--Stop clock after made basket near end of game, two min. sounds about right
--T/O only by players on court

Disagree:
--Halves stead quarters. Keep quarters. Some states do Q to enable jv/v splitting

Wish list:
--Get rid of the three point arc. I heard one writer saying there was talk about abolishing the DH, if that's true they can get rid of this travesty too.

--Get rid of the arrow. Tie 'em up, you deserve an equal shot at possession at the precise spot in the game; jump it up.

--three for two on tenth foul

Get rid of the 3-point arc? Really????

I never get people that want to eliminate the three point line.

I don't either. I hate to say this, but that is one of the dumbest requests people can make. The game is not just a big man's game with the 3 point line.

Peace

Shot clock all the way across for the NF.

Please put some type of running clock when margins get over 40.

Rest is good.

proposed FIBA rule change
 

Coach A forgot to use the metric alphabet when entering his players names into the scorebook so none of his players are actually entered correctly. Therefore, team B starts the game by shooting 1.67 shots for each incorrect entry, then they get the ball 3 meters from the division line. I would suggest the rule expand to include team A having to provide 2.53 muffins for each of the officials in this case. What do you guys think?

BTW - has anyone seen my meds? :confused:

As long as you pay for all the high schools to buy these, it might happen.