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Apples and oranges! |
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My personal opinion is that the call most often AND most egregiously missed, especially at the hs varsity level, is the little travel to set up for the 3-point shot. It happens at least three to six times per game at a certain level and is almost never called. Talk about an advantage gained!!
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Once again, please reference the rule that states a player without the ball has a "right to land." |
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"And yes, I have seen Reggie Miller called for an offensive foul in the situation described, both for kicking the defender and for jumping into him."
Which just goes to prove the point: after getting away with these moves 1000's of times he started to get called once in a great while (many of us have yet to see him called for offensive fouls in these situations). Indeed, several years back an official (I forget who) was asked about Miller's tricks and he chuckled: "We know what he's up to, but he gets us sometimes." Good players are as adept at faking out officials as they are the opposition. Bird and Jordan were among the most subtle: hands kept low and close to the hips when pushing off for shots or rebounds. It's part of the game. Quote:
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JR
I am surprised you see this as apples and oranges. Having left the floor, a defender is not entitled to air space or ground space other than that in her vertical plane. If I ball fake with the intent of going left, the defender cannot prevent my going left by leaping into my potential path. I have always taught that if you jump laterally to a defensive position, you have to land to be in position. I think this holds true in all cases. |
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Okay, help me out here,Jurassic or JefftheRef. Please provide the rule reference that states a an airborne player who does not/has not had the ball has a "right to land." You guys keep saying this but I can't it in the book. Where is it in the rule book? Not being argumentative but I don't see where the rules justify your point.
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Rule 4-23 (excertps) GUARDING Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. ART.4 ...Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball: b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor. ART 5 ...Guarding a moving opponent without the ball: d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor. |
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From what I read, a airborne defender who contacts an offensive player outside of his vertical plane is blocking. |
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Block/Charge
First and foremost I want to thank you for and interesting discussion in this thread. It has caused me think and re-think my position on this issue. There are some principles I have found that may apply to the discussion.
4-23-1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent... 4-23-2 To obtain an initial legal guarding position: a. The guard must have both feet touching the floor. b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent. 4-23-3 After the initial legal guarding position is obtained: a. The guard is NOT required to have either or both feet on the floor or continue facing the opponent. b. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs. c. The guard may raise hands or jump WITHIN his/her vertical plane. There is more to the rule, and a little I have left out but I do not think that it applies to the situation. One other situation I want to cite is 10-6-2. It talks about contact between a dribbler and a defender, but what I think is interesting is the last line: "The dribbler should not be permitted additional rights in executing a jump try for goal, pivoting, feinting or starting a dribble." So, with all of this quoted, what is the point? If the ref feels the defender has legal guarding position and the defender jumps, still facing the offensive player, and while the defender is still the the air, the offensive player moves into the path of the defender, I think the responsibility for contact goes to the offensive player. As a ref, I can see visualize a jump where legal guarding position is maintained and where it is lost (that's why we get paid - to judge the situation)! I interpret 4-23 as saying a defender can leave his/her feet, moving, and still maintain legal guarding position. The operative word is "can". It is not automatic in every case. If the defender reaches or kicks while in the air and contact is made, then I am inclined to call the foul on the defender. If the defender is not reaching and the offensive player has initiated the contact, I will lean toward a player control foul or a no-call - depending on the amount of contact or situation of the game. I am not going to get hung up on whether the defender has a right to come down on a spot or not, I want to determine if legal guarding position is maintained and who is responsible for the contact. |
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__________________
Never argue with an idiot. He will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
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Re: Block/Charge
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You're guys are over extending the rules of a guarding position and verticality. The rule book says nothing about the shooter leaving the floor after the defender. If the defender blocks the offensive player's path and is not in a legal position, HE HAS BLOCKED. |
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