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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2003, 10:00am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
[/B]
If a defender is running at a player with the ball, doesn't he if to stop prior to making contact and establish position? Why is it any different if he's running, and then jumps? Answer: [/B][/QUOTE]In your case,the defender is running AT the player.In Jeff's case,the defender ISN'T running at the player.After the defender left his feet,in Jeff's case,he wouldn't have made contact with the opponent IF the opponent hadn't jumped in front of the defender AFTER the defender had left his feet.

Apples and oranges!
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2003, 10:45am
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My personal opinion is that the call most often AND most egregiously missed, especially at the hs varsity level, is the little travel to set up for the 3-point shot. It happens at least three to six times per game at a certain level and is almost never called. Talk about an advantage gained!!
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2003, 11:49am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
In your case,the defender is running AT the player.In Jeff's case,the defender ISN'T running at the player.After the defender left his feet,in Jeff's case,he wouldn't have made contact with the opponent IF the opponent hadn't jumped in front of the defender AFTER the defender had left his feet.
Why does it matter whether he's running or not? If he doesn't legally obtain the spot on the floor first, it's still blocking. The rule I quote yesterday states, "If he/she (the defender) jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he/she has obtained a guarding position." That's very clear. Whether he's running or not has nothing to do with it.

Once again, please reference the rule that states a player without the ball has a "right to land."
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2003, 12:13pm
Joe Joe is offline
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"And yes, I have seen Reggie Miller called for an offensive foul in the situation described, both for kicking the defender and for jumping into him."

Which just goes to prove the point: after getting away
with these moves 1000's of times he started to get
called once in a great while (many of us have yet to see
him called for offensive fouls in these situations). Indeed,
several years back an official (I forget who) was asked about Miller's tricks and he chuckled: "We know what he's up to, but he gets us sometimes." Good players are as adept at faking out officials as they are the opposition. Bird and Jordan were among the most subtle: hands kept low and close to the hips when pushing off for shots or rebounds.
It's part of the game.




Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
You guys are talking about 2 different things here.

1- The original post would seem to be a paly where the shooter has both feet planted on the floor, pump fakes, gets the defender into the air, and jumps into him.

2- The latter play has the shooter "driving" to the basket.

Does the same rule application apply to both scenarios? Personally, I haven't been able to find anything that the defender is entitled to a spot on the floor to land after becoming airborne. The only application I find is for the shooter/thrower. But I did find this. "If he/she (the defender) jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he/she has obtained a guarding position." So, even if the defender had LGP before jumping, if he jumps toward the offensive player, doesn't he have to re-establish his LGP. by returning to the floor with both feet?

And yes, I have seen Reggie Miller called for an offensive foul in the situation described, both for kicking the defender and for jumping into him.

PS - After writing this, I looked back at some of the posts and I believe Camron and I have written almost the same thing.

I'm with Cam and Chuckie.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 15, 2003, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe
"And yes, I have seen Reggie Miller called for an offensive foul in the situation described, both for kicking the defender and for jumping into him."

Which just goes to prove the point: after getting away
with these moves 1000's of times he started to get
called once in a great while (many of us have yet to see
him called for offensive fouls in these situations). Indeed,
several years back an official (I forget who) was asked about Miller's tricks and he chuckled: "We know what he's up to, but he gets us sometimes." Good players are as adept at faking out officials as they are the opposition. Bird and Jordan were among the most subtle: hands kept low and close to the hips when pushing off for shots or rebounds.
It's part of the game.
I don't know about all that. You asked if anyone had ever seen him called for a foul and I have, several times when he would kick his leg out on jumpers.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 08:30am
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JR
I am surprised you see this as apples and oranges. Having left the floor, a defender is not entitled to air space or ground space other than that in her vertical plane. If I ball fake with the intent of going left, the defender cannot prevent my going left by leaping into my potential path.

I have always taught that if you jump laterally to a defensive position, you have to land to be in position. I think this holds true in all cases.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 09:07am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
[B
I have always taught that if you jump laterally to a defensive position, you have to land to be in position. I think this holds true in all cases. [/B]
Coach,if your defensive player jumps laterally in front of an offensive player,and-AFTER your player is in the air-the offensive player now jumps forward INTO your player,is the foul on your player? Or are you going to be screaming for a PC foul? NOTE that your your player would NOT have made contact if the offensive player hadn't jumped into her!
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 10:38am
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Okay, help me out here,Jurassic or JefftheRef. Please provide the rule reference that states a an airborne player who does not/has not had the ball has a "right to land." You guys keep saying this but I can't it in the book. Where is it in the rule book? Not being argumentative but I don't see where the rules justify your point.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 11:25am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Okay, help me out here,Jurassic or JefftheRef. Please provide the rule reference that states a an airborne player who does not/has not had the ball has a "right to land." You guys keep saying this but I can't it in the book. Where is it in the rule book? Not being argumentative but I don't see where the rules justify your point.
It's Rule 4-23-5d (from the 1999-2000 book)

Rule 4-23 (excertps) GUARDING

Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.


ART.4 ...Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

ART 5 ...Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Okay, help me out here,Jurassic or JefftheRef. Please provide the rule reference that states a an airborne player who does not/has not had the ball has a "right to land." You guys keep saying this but I can't it in the book. Where is it in the rule book? Not being argumentative but I don't see where the rules justify your point.
It's Rule 4-23-5d (from the 1999-2000 book)

Rule 4-23 (excertps) GUARDING

Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent.


ART.4 ...Guarding an opponent with the ball or a stationary opponent without the ball:
b. If the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.

ART 5 ...Guarding a moving opponent without the ball:
d. If the opponent is airborne, the guard must have obtained legal position before the opponent left the floor.
Camron, this addresses the player with ball being airborne. I'm fully aware of those rules. What I wopuld like address is the "right to land" by an airborne defender.

From what I read, a airborne defender who contacts an offensive player outside of his vertical plane is blocking.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 01:38pm
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Tony
Art 5 clearly applies to a player without the ball. It might be able to apply to the defense, though ntohing specifically says it does.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 01:52pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Tony
Art 5 clearly applies to a player without the ball. It might be able to apply to the defense, though ntohing specifically says it does.
But it does not apply to the guard being airborne and his "right to land," that JR and Jeff claim exists.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 02:16pm
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Block/Charge

First and foremost I want to thank you for and interesting discussion in this thread. It has caused me think and re-think my position on this issue. There are some principles I have found that may apply to the discussion.

4-23-1 Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. There is no minimum distance required between the guard and opponent, but the maximum is 6 feet when closely guarded. Every player is entitled to a spot on the floor provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent...
4-23-2 To obtain an initial legal guarding position:
a. The guard must have both feet touching the floor.
b. The front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
4-23-3 After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard is NOT required to have either or both feet on the floor or continue facing the opponent.
b. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
c. The guard may raise hands or jump WITHIN his/her vertical plane.

There is more to the rule, and a little I have left out but I do not think that it applies to the situation. One other situation I want to cite is 10-6-2. It talks about contact between a dribbler and a defender, but what I think is interesting is the last line: "The dribbler should not be permitted additional rights in executing a jump try for goal, pivoting, feinting or starting a dribble."

So, with all of this quoted, what is the point? If the ref feels the defender has legal guarding position and the defender jumps, still facing the offensive player, and while the defender is still the the air, the offensive player moves into the path of the defender, I think the responsibility for contact goes to the offensive player. As a ref, I can see visualize a jump where legal guarding position is maintained and where it is lost (that's why we get paid - to judge the situation)! I interpret 4-23 as saying a defender can leave his/her feet, moving, and still maintain legal guarding position. The operative word is "can". It is not automatic in every case. If the defender reaches or kicks while in the air and contact is made, then I am inclined to call the foul on the defender. If the defender is not reaching and the offensive player has initiated the contact, I will lean toward a player control foul or a no-call - depending on the amount of contact or situation of the game.

I am not going to get hung up on whether the defender has a right to come down on a spot or not, I want to determine if legal guarding position is maintained and who is responsible for the contact.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Tony
Art 5 clearly applies to a player without the ball. It might be able to apply to the defense, though ntohing specifically says it does.
HawksCoach: Nothing to do with this thread, but are you guys playing in the 21/22 Jun AAU tournament in northern VA?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 16, 2003, 03:10pm
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Re: Block/Charge

Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
So, with all of this quoted, what is the point? If the ref feels the defender has legal guarding position and the defender jumps, still facing the offensive player, and while the defender is still the the air, the offensive player moves into the path of the defender, I think the responsibility for contact goes to the offensive player. As a ref, I can see visualize a jump where legal guarding position is maintained and where it is lost (that's why we get paid - to judge the situation)!

I am not going to get hung up on whether the defender has a right to come down on a spot or not, I want to determine if legal guarding position is maintained and who is responsible for the contact.
How can a guard maintain a LGP when he jumps and leaves his vertical plane? If he does, we can throw everything out the window with regards to verticality and LGP.

You're guys are over extending the rules of a guarding position and verticality. The rule book says nothing about the shooter leaving the floor after the defender. If the defender blocks the offensive player's path and is not in a legal position, HE HAS BLOCKED.
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