erroneously canceling or counting....
 

Guys,

Wasn't my game, but I have a partner tonight who was on this game. Three times in one game, supposedly he missed the a last second shot play. So, that got me to thinking:

Just before the half, you have last second shot responsibility. You think the shot clearly left the shooter's hand before the horn. You count it, conduct usual halftime check with table and run into the dressing room. In the dressing room both partners CONVINCE you that you missed the call.

Question 1 - how would you go about changing your call?
Question 2 - Is this covered by the 5th correctable error and are you within the timeframe
Question 3 - How would you try to handle if this was between quarter 1 and 2?
Question 4 - End of game situation where it determines a winner
Question 5 - How would you pre-game this situation

1 - Go out after the half and notify both coaches and update the book since this still falls within the CE timeframe.

2 - Yes and yes.

3 - Same way.

4 - Once you leave the confines of the court that's it.

5 - Pregame that if there is disagreement we need to get together and get it right NOW, not in the locker room.

I wouldn't have left the floor until I have concurrence from my partners. If they want to CONVINCE me I'm wrong, we do it on the floor before the half (or worse yet, GAME) ends.

In OP the word "think" is a red flag. If I "think" it was a good shot, my partner better come to me with the word "know" in his/her advice; I am not looking for a second opinion, but for a "fact". That's what I would discuss during pre-game.

I'd like to see this corrected during the dead ball time between quarters. We dont need to be in the lockerroom to say we got something wrong. Get it right before leaving the floor.

Running off the court between halves too?

No, I moonwalk off like I learned at a camp somewhere. ;)

Tref,

Wasn't really in a hurry. Did halftime table check and retrieved jackets, then left court. Just trying to convey that in this play, the officials were in the dressing room when the discussion took place.

As the calling official, I'm not going to ask my partners if they have a different opinion than mine. I'm counting or waving, and unless they approach me immediately, I'm not making the change.

As others have said, "pregame."

Run, walk,or crawl you still can correct at the start of the 2nd half.

True BNR, I just prefer to fix it before leaving the court. Too much speculation comes about when we change scores after the half has ended. I mean, did the partners need that much time to think about?

Had a packed 2nd round game last Friday night & when the home team fans rushed the court, I jogged off :p

Ideally it would be discussed right away before going to the table. But I've seen it where a guy didn't question himself until he was in the locker room.

I'm not positive why it matters whether we correct before we enter the locker room or after. In either case, at halftime, the teams have probably left the court, so you still gotta explain it to the coaches when they return and the speculation will still be there from them.

How did you like the jog? Were you a long way away from the exit and therefore a jog was more appropriate or were you at the close exit and just did the cowardly thing :D

I don't believe this, by definition, is a correctable error situation. What rule was set aside that resulted in erroneously counting/cancelling a score? This was a judgement call by the official responsible for the shot and in that respect, if the official was sure of his call, I agree with Snaqwells. Now if the official had any doubt then he would confer with his partners before counting or cancelling and before leaving the floor.

Not worried about explaining an erroneously counted basket to coaches, it is what it is.
I just prefer to fix mistakes immediately rather than 10 minutes later. No coaches/players/fans/observers/haters can say we conspired to fix the half-time spread on the underground HS wagering scene. Many biased parties already say we cheat, why open the door to more criticism by coming out to start the 2nd half by deducting points??

That being said, I'm never saying never. It could be done to begin the 3rdQ as it is within the CE time limits, but I would prefer to handle it as we retrieve jackets & switch the arrow & confirm that the book & board match. Lot of opportunity to make it right on the court.

I was the L on the south end & when I saw only 2 police officiers & the white out that used to be in the stands was closing down on the court, I had to get! Felt the same as any other time I've jogged.

* Never said I dont jog ever, just that it isnt a routine departure for me. Gotta feeling I'll be jogging off again tonight...

I agree, this is not erroneously awarding a basket. That would be like calling a 3 a two. Then you decide that you did not give the proper points and then come back and allow it to be a 3. This is clearly a judgment call and if the basket counts or not is not just making a mistake.

For the record if we go into the locker room, it is too late to change something IMO.

Peace

So we count a basket that shouldnt have counted as in the OP, but its the end of !stQ. When is it too late to correct an officials mistake?

I disagree. I believe this falls under 2-10 as a CE. Think about this, if we count a basket that actually wasn't good, aren't we erroneously awarding a score?

Not that I'm big on the adjudication of CEs, but that's ^^ what I was thinking.

+1

If the decision is only a judgment call, then no. We are making a judgment that the basket counts on a last second count is not necessarily erroneous. We may decide that we screwed up, but I do not see it as an erroneous error that falls under 2-10. And I am more concerned with the process than the rule here. I think it is basically too late to come back in the locker room and decided to change that call. Do it on the floor or leave it alone.

Peace

The T whos not in a good position marks a 3 point attempt, the C clearly sees a toe on the line, shot goes & T signals the make. Isnt that a judgment call that can & should be corrected?

No, that is a Correctable Error.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. And I agree with Rut.

Not really a judgment call, it was either one way or the other in that case. You are either behind the line or you are not. And even in that case I would hope that would not be a discussion and it would be properly corrected. That is like saying we have a foul and then we go to the locker room and say we did not have a foul.

I guess what I am mostly opposed to is the fact you go to the locker room then discuss the play and change it. I guess it could be seen as a correctable error, but I have more of a problem with going to the locker room when information was should have been shared onto the floor.

Peace

On this I fully agree!! If we have disagreement at the end of the half, it needs to be resolved while we're still on the floor.

So toe the line or not is correctable & ball in hand or not is judgment. Got it!
Just for the record, I'm all for fixing this on the floor as well.

Erroneously awarding or cancelling a basket is to me something you do under the rules. Erroneous is not making a judgment call and deciding that you should award a basket, like counting a basket on a foul shot. Erroneous to me would probably be more like an air ball that is treated like a made basket. And then we go about our business as if that was a made basket.

Peace

Got it, I see the difference JRut.

That being said, whether the ball was released in time or not, can & should be taken care of on the court.

<s>This falls in the 2-10 category, I believe. I think it can be corrected before the end of the first dead ball after the clock starts (could be well into the 2nd half).</s> Never mind, per APG's post below this one.
That said, I can't imagine coming out of the locker room and fixing it to start the 2nd half.

If my partner is that sure, then he would approach me before we head off the court. If he brings it up in the locker room, he's not going to be convincing enough to change my mind.

To give JRut's line of thinking some backing

2010-2011 NFHS Basketball Interpretations

SITUATION 1: Three-tenths of a second remain on the clock in the second quarter. A1’s throw-in is “caught” by A2, released on a try, and the officials count the basket. The coaches do not protest, the officials do not confer and all participants head to their respective locker rooms. Upon returning to the court with three minutes remaining in the intermission, the opposing coach asks the officials if the basket should have counted since the ball was clearly caught and released with three-tenths of a second on the clock. The officials realize their error at this point. RULING: The goal counts; this is not a correctable-error situation as described in Rule 2-10. (2-10; 5-2-5)

I will say, that I think this interpretation is silly...this is the exact definition of erroneously setting a score because the officials set aside a rule.

That is patently absurd, that's not even a judgment call. The NFHS' Random Absurd Interpretation Generator is working overtime these days.

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...1-interps.html

Remember our discussion on this? It was situation 1 in that year's interps. :(


PS I see that APG posted this while I was searching for the old thread.

So can it be fixed prior to leaving the court for halftime?

I think the key question is what to do if U2 is signaling a good basket while U1 is waving it off. :D

bad snaqwells

Thanks. My screen has been clean for quite a while, but now it's got Diet Pepsi dripping off it.