Going the wrong way...
 

This will be a little long so please bear with me...I've asked a couple of officials and nobody has known the answer so I've turned to the forum for the answer.

9.5 (b) A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against his/her own backboard and catches the ball.

Ruling: A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent's backboard constitutes another dribble.

My question is does this include shooting the ball off the backboard?
Example: A1 is going the wrong way, shoots a lay in off the backboard then catches the miss. Double dribble?

What if the player going the wrong way tries to lay it in without using the backboard and it strikes the rim only, misses and then they catch it?

What if the player going the wrong way tries to lay it in and shoots an airball? Is this considered an illegal pass to themselves?

Can you ever be considered actually shooting if it's towards the wrong basket?

Because the case book says, "throws the ball off the backboard," I have one official telling me they can shoot at the wrong basket, rebound, shoot again, rebound, shoot again, etc.

Due to officiating 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th grade tournaments on the weekend, this actually comes up more often than you'd think and I'd like to know the correct ruling.

Thanks for your help.

A player can only attempt a try at his own basket, so it makes no difference whether or not the player was "shooting" at his opponent's basket.

Your quotation of the casebook play is a little disjointed. Here it is in its entirety.


A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent's backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each.

RULING: Legal in (a); a team's own backboard is considered part of that team's "equipment" and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent's backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 4-15-2; Fundamental 19)

As La Rikardo stated, by definition, a try is an attempt at a player's own goal.

Since throwing the ball towards the opponent's goal is not a try, throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard and catching it would be the same as starting a dribble. Catching an airball thrown at an opponent's backboard would be covered under casebook play 4.44.3 SITUATION D.

also see 4-Ball Location to determine what happens (the "location") when the ball hits the opponents backboard. Then, substitute that "location" for "back board" and the rulings will be clear.

I had something like this last Saturday.

A-1 gets confused and attempts a shot at B's basket. A-2 gets the rebound and puts the ball back up (amid cries of "what are you doing?!"), but that "fails" and goes back to A-1, who wakes up and dribbles in the correct direction.

Your brain goes into "this should be interesting" mode during this process. I waited to see if I'd have one of those freakish double-dribble calls, but the ball went between two players. Had the A-1 caught her "rebound" and put the ball back up off the backboard, even if it hit the rim on the way down, would we still have a double dribble? The rim doesn't kill control, right?

Not yet (as I read the play). Correct.

No, it's not considered "an illegal pass to themselves." There's no such thing. It's either a travel, or an illegal dribble, but it's not an "illegal pass."

Did A1 use her dribble yet?

As I see it, if A-1 puts the ball on the wrong backboard, that's one dribble. The ball does not go in, and A-1 catches the ball, and "tries" again. The instant that ball hits the backboard again -- regardless of whether it hit the rim the first time -- we have a double dribble, correct?

I left out that parts that were irrelevant to my question to save time/space. Sorry if it added to any confusion.

I would think you wouldn't have the double dribble until they caught it off the backboard again.

Just like if you dribble, catch. Then dribble again, it's not a violation until they touch it again, not when it hits the floor.

When does a dribble become illegal? That should answer your question.

Would you call an illegal dribble if a player holding a ball dribbles once, catches the ball, throws the ball to the floor and then doesn't touch it again?

The confusing part was that you quoted one play but then a different ruling, which made the whole statement incorrect on its face.

Edit: If it's a throw to the floor, then no, but by definition, doesn't any throw against the opponent's backboard constitute a dribble?

If so, as Cobra pointed out, as soon as the ball hit that backboard a second time, tweet.

The second dribble becomes illegal as soon as the dribble occurs. When the ball is pushed to the floor is when the violation occurs.

Sometimes pushing the ball to the floor could be a dribble or it could be a pass. There are other times where it is obviously a dribble. If there are no other players within 20 feet of the guy with the ball and he pushes the ball straight down to the floor it is pretty obvious that he is not trying to pass the ball. So yes, it is a violation as soon as he dribbles the ball. Touching the ball after dribbling is not required for it to be a violation.

Is this correct? I don't see how people being near or not near the player should make a difference. I don't see how you can call it one way one time then another way another time just because there is a player near the player with the ball.

From what you are saying, if A1 standing near A2 dribbles, catches their dribble then pushes the ball towards the floor then A2 takes it, it's not a double dribble. But if A1, with no one near him dribbles, catches then pushes the ball towards the floor you would call a double dribble as soon as they push it. Is that what you are saying?

Wouldn't that also mean that if A1 was going the wrong way, started a lay in, you would call the double dribble BEFORE it hits the backboard? That again does not seem correct.

Wrong.

Why is that wrong?

The definiton of a dribble is "ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once or several times." Dribbling is pushing the ball to the floor, it doesn't have anything to do with the ball coming back up.

You've got to make a decision if it's a dribble or a pass. Sometimes a bounce pass and a dribble can look similar. You've got to decide which one it is. If the ball is immediately controlled by another player then you can assume it was a pass.

While you're right about when the dribble begins, I don't foresee ever making this call before the "dribble" re-contacts the dribbler. There's no way I know if it's a dribble before that happens. 97 times out of 98, you'll be right and no one will care. The one time, however, I actually blow my whistle when it hits the backboard, the ball will carom off the rim and B2 will retrieve it and have a wide open shot that I have to take away.

No reason not to wait a half second until the "shooter" re-contacts the ball.

I have never seen anyone try and make that distinction and neither am I. I'm not going to make a decision on these type of plays until the player touches the ball again.

Well yeah, you've got to be sure that it isn't a pass before you call the violation. I gave the example of a player standing, with no one anywhere near him, who pushes the ball straight to the floor. He realizes that it is his second dribble and doesn't touch the ball on the way up. Obviously he isn't trying to pass the ball.

Just call the violation as soon as you're sure it isn't a pass. Just because the player who dribbled the ball a second time doesn't touch the ball again doesn't mean that it wasn't a dribble. This is also important because one may need to know when the ball actually became dead. The ball became dead when the player let go of the ball even though it may have taken the official a second or two to determine if it was a dribble or a pass.

If the player lets it bounce after pushing it to the floor, I'm not calling it until he touches it. If he never touches it again, even better.

+1

What about this one. A1 accidently dribbles to B's basket. They gather the ball with two hands and lay it off the backboard and into the basket. Are you going to call the double dribble here cobra and wipe off the two points A scored for the other tea, by calling a double dribble. I think not. They would have to miss the shot and retouch teh ball to get that call.

+1

That's the only way I've ever been thought to officiate the play and the only way I've seen it officiated.

What Snaqs and APG said and A1 might bounce the ball off his foot in such a manner that B1 - B5 could get an easy basket.

Exactly.

This is not correct. Should the guy realize before catching the 2nd dribble that he's about to violate, and doesn't actually catch or touch the ball, all you have is a very slow and very bad pass.

Don't forget possibly traveling.
 

If A1 shoots at B's goal, misses and catches the rebound even without dribbling, he probably lifted his pivot foot on the try(not shot). If the goal is considered the floor, then he has traveled.

A1 is holding the ball. He has used his dribble. B1 steps up and the official starts his closely guarded count. A1 looks to pass but no teammate is open. As the count approaches 5, A1, in his panic, forgets and pushes the ball straight to the floor, and tries to go around. Before A1 has a chance to touch it again, B1 slaps the ball out of bounds. What's the call?

OOB on B

Let's have a poll. Couple more guys on my side this time.

I have actually seen this call.

A1 dribbled into the corner, then picked up the ball looking into the post. He wanted to make the entry pass, but never got the look he wanted. After several seconds, he gave up the idea, then turned and put the ball on the floor again.........and then remembered he had no dribble. He pushed the ball to the floor, then buried his face in both hands and mumbled something. Official whistled an illegal dribble violation.

Correct, in my opinion.

Saying that you don't like it or you don't call it that way is one thing, but you can't say it is wrong. You just admitted the guy dribbled a second time after the first dribble ended. That is about one word off of the exact definition of an illegal dribble.

He's not dribbling the ball in this situation. The dribble definition describes a player batting or pushing a ball. The pass definition also describes a player batting a ball. What that means is that the official must decide what the player is trying to do as the same act can be considered different things. In this situation the player is not dribbling, he is trying to throw the ball into the basket. It is similar to a player who stops dribbling then tries to make a trick shot by bouncing the ball off the floor and into the basket. He did throw the ball into the floor after ending his dribble but he wasn't dribbling, he was trying to bounce the ball into the basket therefore it isn't a violation.

That's an illegal dribble. I'm very surprised that another poster said they would allow A keep the ball after committing a violation (illegal dribble) in an attempt to avoid an imminent violation (5-second).

I find it odd that you have never heard of this considering it's just the definition of an illegal dribble combined with the definition of a dribble. How does one be a basketball official and not understand these concepts? I understand that some may refuse to enforce the rules but usually they at least know what the rules actually are.

And I have nothing until he touches the ball again...and from reading the replies in this thread (so far), only you and Cobra would have an immediate violation.

A1 picks up his dribble near the 3 pt line. He throws the ball straight up in the air, catches it, and starts another dribble. No violation. He may have recovered his own really bad shot, as far as we know.

Same thing.

4.15.4 Situation A: As dribbler A1 attempts to change directions to avoid guard B1, he/she allows the ball to come to rest in one hand in bringing the ball from the right to the left side of the body. A1 pushes the ball to the floor in an attempt to continue the dribble. Ruling: When A1 palmed/carried the ball, the dribble ended and when he/she pushed the ball to the floor a violation occurred.

But aren't we talking about whether this violation should be called when the player throws the ball at the opponent's basket vs when he catches it (assuming he's already dribbled or lifted his pivot foot)?