What do you got?
 

Take a look at this video. Do you think the L could have done anything better here?

Clearly the C and T did not have the ball because they ruled no basket. Could the L have helped out anymore?

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Is There A Video Somewhere ???
 

I have no call. Definitely no call. I would bet my house that my interpretation is correct.

Forgot something? ;)

I'm trying to attach a .wmv file, but it tells me it's invalid. What kind of file should I make the video in order to upload it?

You can't attach .wmv files...only images, doc/txt files and zip files. You could upload the clip to YouTube and embedded the clip here.

Okay, video should be in there now.

I've got a made three point try (that part is obvious).

This might be a time the lead could see the ball go in the basket since this was a potential alley oop play with an offensive player at the rim. Still the C and T have to get this call.

I suppose the L could help, but as APG said, the outside officials have to have this. To pick it apart further, :), I have no idea what white 21 did that constituted a foul, and that convo with the V coach went on too long for my liking, and the (assuming it's the R) official is at least a little razzled, and it shows when he tries to run to a wrong new spot before the ball's put back into play.
(I'm so glad none of my film is on here.):D

I didn't see much on the illegal screen call either...I didn't see the push that the official indicated.

What I'm really surprised about is how white just took the ball after the made shot and dribbled the ball up the court. It's pretty much instinct for players to take it out when the ball goes in the basket.

The C had the look, the Trail wasn't even at half court. The players didn't even take the ball out of bounds after the made basket. NO EXCUSE!!!

Sorry guys but I'm not 100% sure the ball went in the basket. White #30 is looking straight up at the ball and the basket and he obviously didn't think it went through the basket. He's standing right there. None of the players on the floor react as if the ball went in. I think it's very possible that it just hit the net.

I know on my first viewing I wasn't sure the ball went in so I could understand if the C saw it the same way. If you see his converstation with the coach his hand gesturing indicates that he thinks the ball hit below the rim.

The fact that some players reacted like it went in and some did not shows that this was a tough one to call in real time.

As I look at the video over and over, the ball clearly goes into the basket. If the ball was short it would have hit the floor directly towards the L. However, its trajectory is altered and bounces away from the lead. This was a missed called.

If we're to be accurate, the C or T should've blown this dead immediately, making it a 3 for blue and a throw-in violation for white, correct?

Now, let's say your the C or the T, and you think the ball went in, but continued the play until the next dead ball. Obviously, you'd get the crew together about it, but the only thing you could do is award the 3, and let all other play stand (no throw-in violation), correct?

If you pause the video just right, or use this video the ball clearly goes through the basket:
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No. If I think the ball went in, I immediately kill the play. Award the points or give the ball to white, who had the ball when I killed the play.


I paused the video over and over and I don't see the ball clearly going in the basket. I see the ball hitting the net. The quality of the video is not good enough to see whether the ball goes through the ring or not.

All things being equal, there's no hesitation by the C, the T or the players. No players are raising their arms and yelling for a basket. The hand is quicker than the eye. I've got no basket.

BTW, if the ball is in the net, the player who jumped for the pass has his hand on the rim, which is BI.

I'm not convinced the basket was good either, I don't think the video is quite good enough to really tell.

Really??? Just the opposite from me.

I went off of one look without reading anyone else's opinion on it. It seemed pretty obvious at first...especially with the OP asking if the lead could have helped (which kind of framed my viewing of the play). Upon further review, it's not as obvious.

I still think it looks pretty obvious. The ball wouldn't react like it does without passing through the net, IMO. It moves abruptly down and to the left.

Ok, I'm no physics major, but I don't see how a ball thrown that hard gets stopped and moved to the left enough (from our angle) for the player standing in front of the basket to catch the ball as it lands just by hitting the net.

Look at the flight of the ball after it leaves hands of the "shooter." There's no way that ball would hit just the net and travel back toward the shooter.

It not only went through the ring, it hit the back right side of the ring and caromed back in toward the players. If that ball had just hit the net, it would have continued traveling toward the end line.

Basket should have counted, and T and C both should have had a really good look at it, especially from their angles. Looks like two guys were asleep at the wheel at the same time.

+3

I'm with you. It's obvious the ball went in. I've never seen a coach react the way the V coach does when an errant pass from one of his player's hits the bottom of the net and the other team recovers it.

First...It's a three. If you pause the video at about 0:11 you can see the ball above the rim and then a split-second later it takes a sharp left turn. I went to a science high school :) so I know there's no way a ball does that in mid-air by itself.

Second...If I happen to stop it and award the goal I'm not calling a throw-in violation. I'd just give the ball to White. Given the general confusion on the court I think that makes sense.

Third...yes, if you figured things out after the foul you'd just award the 3 and go to the POI which is whatever penalty is being administered for the foul.

Does the ball change direction from hitting the rim...or from hitting the player? I'm still not convinced from the video.

Well, I thought no possible way was it good, but after watching several times, it's hard to tell. the fact none of the players, officials and even a delayed reaction from coach has me heavily leaning towards a miss.

I think it went in based on watching the video a couple times but as I said earlier on my first viewing I didn't realize it went in and our camera angle is in line with the C so I can see how he missed it. The kid who rebounded the ball didn't think it went in, he was looking at the offensive player jumping towards the rim and then all of a sudden the ball is in his hands.

Just a weird play. I watched a special one night about how sometimes our brains register what we expect to see and not what really happened. If the C is not expecting the ball to go in the basket and then ball takes a funny trajectory not normal for a made basket then his brain might just not have registered that the ball went through the basket.

That, and good officiating has us working the rebounding action and not following the ball into the basket unless we think there's a real chance for goaltending or interference.

At least once or twice a season I have no clue that a ball went in when a foul was called. Fortunately, it hasn't come to me counting one that didn't go in or vice versa in 25 years, but it's one of those things I'm afraid could happen, especially working 2-person mechanics.

This is a 3 person game however, the trail probably had the best angle, opposite the camera angle. If the ball had hit the rim, or fell short he would have seen it. The Head Coach also has that same angle.

Except that even the trail isn't going have laser-like focus on the ball unless he's willing to ignore his other responsibilities.

+1

+2

and, a tale from the opposite side:

I'm lead. Ball is shot, seems (in my peripheral vision) to "check up" and falls straight down. Bounces twice. 8 players head back to the other end of the court. B1 heads for the ball with no real sense of urgency. Grabs the ball and nonchalantly tosses it to B2 who hasn't moved much. B2 starts to dribble up the court.

I blow the whistle for a throw-in violation. Partner gently informs me that the shot was missed. :o

After watching it several times, I have no doubt it went in.

If it didn't go in, that ball has to be a long lost relative of the JFK magic bullet, because its path defies logic otherwise.

You'll also notice the player who collects the ball wasn't even looking up at the basket. He was watching the mess of players in the air flying past the basket. He just sees the ball come bouncing back at him and assumes the shot didn't go in. The player to his right (21) did watch the ball go through, and he starts walking toward the endline to start a throw in. He's clearly confused when he watches his teammate just start dribbling up the floor.

The ball went in.

Wow, just remembered a travel game I did earlier this season, I'm trail, shot is missed, defender takes ball steps OB and I blow whistle and call travel...........partner comes over snickering......"it was good". As you said, better at this level than a Varsity game

k

I think it went in. It looked (to me) that it changed direction before the player got to it...which means it was the rim and only the inside of the rim could have changed it in the way that it changed.

Any of you saying that you aren't sure the ball went in really need to visit your optometrist soon!!

The ball *clearly* goes in. If you need to go back and slo-mo or freeze frame it, it is even *more* obvious!

It seems like everyone knows it went in too, except for the kid that grabbed it and took off back up the court.

Looks to me like the lead thought it went in too based on his body language. He should have blown the play dead and instructed the other team to take the ball OOB.

If all three officials somehow do not know it went in (which is a travesty in and of itself!), they should ask the table for help. It should be obvious based on the protest by the coach, fans, etc. that they missed it!

Not a very good way to start off the game!

Wouldn't be the first time I've been called blind in reference to a basketball game, but usually I hear that from the fans.

LOL ... Well, we really should be getting the ones that we can watch over and over again on video correct!

I can understand how this was missed in real time even though either the C or T should have gotten this.

However, with the advantage of replay the ball obviously goes through the rim. I'm shocked that multiple people are saying they can't tell whether or not the ball went in.

Somebody said that none of the players reacted as if it went in. Simply not true. All of the white players, except the one who got the ball, react as if the ball went in. White 3 momentarily puts his hand up to take the ball out of bounds before his teamate takes off with it.

And the body language of all of the blue players is to turn their backs to the ball as if they are going to play defense after a made basket, not transition. Also the blue player closest to the table almost immediately signals for a three as does the entire blue bench.

Totally agree —*there were only 4 people in the entire gym that didn't realize the ball went in ... the player that grabbed it and the 3 officials!!

That's pretty good...
 

...because when I'm at lead in 2-man there are several times I've not known the basket was scored, and, depending on the partner, have had to check with the table.

As for this video, the C is right in the play (after the shot, you can make out the top of his head). To me, it didn't look like it went; it looked like BI and the ball hit off the arm of the player who was trying to get the pass.

There are occasions where I've been at lead in 3-man, and feeling the trail wasn't going to make it into the play I've eased up to get an angle on the potential shooter and defender, but this wasn't that type of breakaway. I don't know how the trail didn't have some real knowledge on what happened.

Until a better video comes along, I'll trust the judgment of the guys who were there.

Both Times, My Partner Straightened Me Out ...
 

I've screwed it up both ways. As the lead, using my peripheral vision, I thought that the ball went in when it actually just flicked the net, and I thought that the ball didn't go in when it actually went through a very loose net like a bat out of hell. Officiate for over thirty years, and you'll probably see everything at least once.

A better video? This one clearly shows everything! We shouldn't need a zoomed-in camera on the basket to be able to tell it went in!

Here are the freeze frames for those that are still questioning it!

The ball headed towards the basket...

https://img.skitch.com/20120214-k8yp...uee9e453uj.jpg

The ball entering the basket — note the position of the ball just inside the rim...

https://img.skitch.com/20120214-8rw3...g989ym6skt.jpg

The ball IN the basket!!

https://img.skitch.com/20120214-esrw...4tjf29w8se.jpg

If anyone still wants to say they are not sure after that, I have no idea what to tell you!!

While I believe the ball when in, those still shots are not at all conclusive. They're too grainy to tell whether the ball is in the basket or in front of it. I think the more telling evidence is how the ball changes path as it passes the rim and the net action....in a way that was consistent only with having gone in.

One more thing. The lead knew it went in — I guarantee you. Watch his body language.

What do you normally do on a steal? You immediately start sprinting the other way. He knew the ball went in and was clearly waiting for the team to take it out of bounds.

This is from about two seconds after the white player grabs the ball and the referee still has not moved an inch and is just standing there waiting...

https://img.skitch.com/20120214-fg1i...ft6kmepn5j.jpg

The second photo CLEARLY shows that the ball is within the cylinder. And the third photo you can see that the orange RIM is in FRONT of the ball —*if the ball was in front of the rim, you wouldn't see the rim, you'd see the ball.

I don't dispute the conclusion, only your reading of what the photo shows....

I zoomed and cropped to just the rim in your 3rd shot.

http://cbrust.smugmug.com/photos/i-Z.../i-ZFD6bNQ.jpg

It doesn't show enough detail to determine anything. For all I know, that is bigfoot that is near the rim. It definitely doesn't make it clear that the rim is in front of the ball. (The 2nd shot is equally inconclusive)

You can totally see the rim and that the bottom of the ball is clearly within it. How could the ball possibly be in front of it?

I think the shot came from the grassy knoll

Hey, take it to the UFO board.

Or 4 people that know it didn't go in! :D

If I've learned anything from shows like CSI and NCIS, it's that you're suppose to blow up the image, then enhance it! :rolleyes:

I've cleaned it up...

http://image1.masterfile.com/em_w/00...-00072217w.jpg

Annnnnnnd /thread!

LOLOL

Butter The Popcorn ...
 

It's "The Zapruder Film - The Sequel".

To hopefully end the debate
 

Well then....

Fair enough. I still maintain the video in the OP was not that clear though. So this raises the question, why didn't the L do anything?

I still maintain that my eyesight is better than the rest of y'all!!! :)

Ball Watcher!:D

Or maybe you just let your brain trick your eyes into seeing what you want them to. :D

What could the L do? If he suspected the ball went in but his T and his C who had much better angles acted like it didn't and the one player in white acted like he didn't.

It looks like from the video, he gave his thoughts to the C and the T and the call was no good.

Anything else he could have done?

Back and to the left.

Back....and to the left.

Back.....................................and to the left.

If the L was the R perhaps he could've checked in with the table crew.
If not, he could suggest that the R does so.

It looked to me like the L thought it went in the whole time, based on his body language —*he didn't move to run back up the other way (like you normally would on a steal) ... he waited, as if he was waiting for the other team to take the ball OOB for the throw-in after a made basket.

Whether or not he knew, of course, is another story.

There is a difference between coaches protesting calls and PROTESTING calls ... this one is the latter. You have to recognize these situations and realize that more than likely you have screwed up if the coach, fans, everyone are saying the ball went in. Dozens of people aren't going to lie about that. Go to the table, get some information (someone at the table saw the ball go in, I guarantee you), and fix the problem!

If the three officials don't know and they go to the table...the table is final decision correct?

So if the table says "no goal" then we don't have a goal.

[QUOTE=Brad;823810]It looked to me like the L thought it went in the whole time, based on his body language —*he didn't move to run back up the other way (like you normally would on a steal) ... he waited, as if he was waiting for the other team to take the ball OOB for the throw-in after a made basket.

Brad,
If you were lead and you thought the basket was good. What would you do if the ball was not taken out properly?

+1

Grandma always said, "everybody aint crazy."


The R is the final decision. Table says no, 3 officials say no... no basket.

Too much reliance on titles (R, U1, U2), IMO. If the L wasn't sure, he should have stopped the game and checked with his partners, then the table.

Get real. It is fine and dandy to say we should not NEED the still shots to determine that the ball went in, BUT to say the pictures are "too grainy" to be conclusive, is just silly.

The original stills that were posted are too inconclusive. Until Toren went and got Abby Sciuto to fix them, all we had was speculation but no real proof.

I thought that we only used the table as a last resort. And if we use the table and they have a definitely answer, we do not go against them.

So in this case, the three officials do not know. They go to the table and the table says "basket good" then they count it. They go to the table and the table says "basket no good" then they don't count it.

If you go to the table and they say "basket good", the three officials wouldn't discount it because the only reason to go to the table is when the three officials could not decide.

Excluding local listings, by rule the R has the final say on whether or not to count the bucket.

That's what I would do.

The R decides whether to count it if the officials disagree. If one official knows it went in, and the others don't have clue; then it went in.

You are correct, what I meant but failed to write was that the R has the final say between disagreeing officials and the table. The table can supply information but they don't have any kind of final say.

Edit: Man, I can't believe basketball season is over already. I really enjoyed this one and was not ready for it to be over.

That sounds most reasonable to me. However, if the shot had not gone in wouldn't you be taking away a potential fast break opportunity? The correctable error parameters were still in place. And the officials got together at the first dead ball following the error.

So as the L would you have waited or still just blew it dead?

Is that a CE??

If I thought it went in and they didn't inbound the ball, I'd blow it dead immediately. There is still time at that point to fix everything. If you don't, and allow play to continue until a dead ball you may have rewarded the opposing team for not properly inbounding the ball.

Looks to me, after finally watching the entire video (rather than just the first part), that they did talk to the table. What did the table say?

http://ncis-la.maxupdates.tv/wp-cont...bby-Sciuto.jpg

Had to look up that one.

Yes. Erroneously counting or canceling a score.

Snaqs likes him some NCIS. I just wish I had the Magic Database of Everything they have in those shows.

Ok, I've said it a million times, I am just not a good at CEs & the time limits (1st dead, 2nd live) to correct. So I just choose not to have em.

Yeah, good luck with that. I've never had one, but I prefer to know the rule in case, in spite of my best efforts, something happens.

You're absolutely right Snaqs, perhaps you can tutor me over the summer. #seriously

There's 1 or 2 coaches that know the correctable errors rule ... hope you don't get him.

Blow my whistle and instruct the other team to take the ball OOB for a throw-in.

That's like saying "I choose not to have a fight in my games" ... good luck! :)

The CE rules simply require some focused attention - and, I find, a refresher look every once in a while. They are not nearly as complicated as people make them out to be, just very specific.

So, once you learn what qualifies as a CE (not too difficult once you focus on learning it), then learning the timing rules is all you need to do. And even that isn't as complicated as you need, as there are only two different scenarios (clock running or not when the error is made).

Table said "No basket"...after watching the video, makes me think they were completely bias.

Did you have representation from both teams at the table?

No. The officials decision is the final decision. All the table does is provide information.

I keep talking big about going up there to work some games with you, but we'll have to make it happen soon.

There was representation from both teams, but I didn't have the conversation with the table. My R had the conversation.

As many of you probably assumed or figured out, I'm the L in this video.

I suspected the ball went in from the reaction of the crowd, the sound of the net, the movement of the net. But I couldn't be positive because my "focus" was on the big man.

When my C and T started running the other way as if the ball had not entered the basket, I figured they had a much better view and I trusted that the ball had not gone in.

The coach asked me if we were going to count that as a "3". He did not ask me if he ball went in. I told him "Give us one sec coach, I had a blocked view coach, but we will figure it out." whistle, foul, we start to talk.

I approach the C and he says to me, "I don't know if it went in." I say, okay let me check with the (old) T.

The T says to me, "I think it went in." I say okay, you're the only one who thinks anything, so let's go with that. He went to the scorer's table to count the basket and that's when the C started his whole display about how the ball didn't go in.

At this point, I'm on the sideline thinking "My partner just left us no recourse." He waived off the basket that he wasn't sure went in or didn't.

It was frustrating.

I can imagine.

I'm OK with what you did here based upon what you knew at the time. Did the C "Big Time" you guys a bit? I noticed he is wearing college stripes while you two are not. I still would like to know what he saw as a foul also.

Wow, just wow. He went from "I don't know" to whole hearted fundamentalism that fast?

Exactly.

First half he did. And he was ruining the game. Second half, I took control and he shrunk. It was a great learning experience.