FIBA and the Possession Arrow

Malcolm Tucker · #1 (**permalink**) Fri May 30, 2003, 06:11pm

It appears that FIBA is going to adopt the possession arrow from October 1 2003.

There has been a lot of comment here that you lot in the U.S.A. do not like the possession arrow and would like to see it go. Is this true?

What are the common problems with it apart from the scoretable forgetting to adjust it.

canuckrefguy · #2 (**permalink**) Fri May 30, 2003, 09:07pm

Scorers' table forgetting the arrow should not be a problem, because the officials should ALWAYS know it.

AP rocks. That's one rule they should NEVER get rid of.

Mark Padgett · #3 (**permalink**) Fri May 30, 2003, 09:11pm

Even though the AP arrow does not appeal to the purist, many HS level (and below) games would take 3 hours to play if we had a true jump ball every time there was a tie-up.

Maybe we could just have them arm wrestle for possession.

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Fri May 30, 2003, 09:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Scorers' table forgetting the arrow should not be a problem, because the officials should ALWAYS know it.

That's like saying there should never be a correctable error. In theory, it's great. But the reality is that it happens, and that is the biggest problem.

Even if the official does know and catches the mistake, it still creates a problem when the table forgets. The mistake has to be corrected, you have to inform coaches, one of them doesn't agree, etc.

canuckrefguy · #5 (**permalink**) Sat May 31, 2003, 12:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Even if the official does know and catches the mistake, it still creates a problem when the table forgets. The mistake has to be corrected, you have to inform coaches, one of them doesn't agree, etc.

A problem that can be managed, I think. That wrinkle, which is fairly infrequent in my experience, is outweighed by the benefits.

NICK · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Jun 01, 2003, 04:41am

Quite a few of us who referee to FIBA rules are really looking forward to this new rule. It will get rid of all the JB especially in women's games

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 02, 2003, 08:17am

Ever since the AP Arrow was adopted by the NFHS and NCAA, only NBA (and the WNBA) and FIBA handled held balls and other jump balls situations the best way: a real honest to goodness jump ball. Now that the NCAA Men's are returning to the jump ball as an experimental rule, FIBA is going to use the AP Arrow. What is the world coming to.

Hawks Coach · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 02, 2003, 09:58am

I guess I am not a purist. I grew up and played in the jump ball days, but hated the jump ball for the fact that when a small player tied up a much taller player, it was a pointless effort. It was pretty obvious who would get the ball. The jump ball, although a traditional rule, was the best thing ever eliminated from the rulebook. The jump favors one trait, height, and one skill, jumping, over all others.

In all other aspects of the game, you can compensate for height. Height on the boards can be neutralized by good blocking out, on offense by doubling the post, on offense by good ball movement and outisde shooting. In the jump ball, there is no way to neutralize height. The small guard who hustles to tie up the opposing center risks a foul and gains nothing off a held ball with the jump ball rule.

The AP gives what you have earned every time, and takes what you have lost every time. You get half a possession for every tie up, you lose half a possession every time you get tied up. That is the most fair resolution of the held ball situation, because neither team was able to assert complete control. You want the ball, get it completely. Get it halfway, that is what you really get - half a possession.

Mark Dexter · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 02, 2003, 05:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach

The AP gives what you have earned every time, and takes what you have lost every time. You get half a possession for every tie up, you lose half a possession every time you get tied up. That is the most fair resolution of the held ball situation, because neither team was able to assert complete control. You want the ball, get it completely. Get it halfway, that is what you really get - half a possession.

I like the AP arrow (especially when compared to the alternative), but you can't take the 1/2 possession rule much further than statistical analysis --- trailing 1 with 1.3 seconds to go, you're not going to give a mouse's behind about 1/2 of a possession.

ROMANO · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 06, 2003, 04:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by Malcolm Tucker
It appears that FIBA is going to adopt the possession arrow from October 1 2003.

There has been a lot of comment here that you lot in the U.S.A. do not like the possession arrow and would like to see it go. Is this true?

What are the common problems with it apart from the scoretable forgetting to adjust it.

I DON'T HEAR ENYTHING ABOUT THAT .BUT I KNEW THAT FIBA IS GOING TO ADPOT THE 24 SEC' RULES LIKE IN THE NBA-FOR SURE!

Hawks Coach · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 11, 2003, 11:07am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I like the AP arrow (especially when compared to the alternative), but you can't take the 1/2 possession rule much further than statistical analysis --- trailing 1 with 1.3 seconds to go, you're not going to give a mouse's behind about 1/2 of a possession.

If the best we can do is a held ball trailing by 1 at the end of a game, we don't deserve to win and we won't win. I really don't look at games by what happens in the last minute, other than obviously doing everything in my power to make that last minute work in our favor, ahead or behind. If you are in a one point game with a few seconds left, you are leaving a lot up to the whims of the basketball gods (and goddesses, Rainmaker!).

My outlook on a rule is not situational. It is either the right rule or it is not. Ad I think the held ball rule is not just a statisitical thing, it is the right way to adjudicate this specific situation where niether team has control. Time and score are irrelevant to the rule being the right rule. I may as well complain about having boundary lines if we step out with the ball down 1 with 1.3 left.

rainmaker · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 11, 2003, 02:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
you are leaving a lot up to the whims of the basketball gods (and goddesses, Rainmaker!).

Leaving out the goddesses doesn't offend me -- I don't believe in them, anyway!

Mark Padgett · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 11, 2003, 02:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
If you are in a one point game with a few seconds left, you are leaving a lot up to the whims of the basketball gods (and goddesses, Rainmaker!).

Or to Chris Webber's inability to count. For those of you who don't get this - ESPN Classic just showed the 1993 NCAA championship game.

Hawks Coach · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 11, 2003, 03:32pm

and you will see half the bench (including an assistant coach) screaming for him to get the TO, and you will see one player in particular (I think it was Michael Talley) on the bench celebrating after he called it. This was a team-wide lack of awareness and a major coaching blunder by S-Fish, and his boy C-Webb takes the heat for this all the time. Truly a major error, but give it to the right person.

Camron Rust · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 11, 2003, 03:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
and you will see half the bench (including an assistant coach) screaming for him to get the TO, and you will see one player in particular (I think it was Michael Talley) on the bench celebrating after he called it. This was a team-wide lack of awareness and a major coaching blunder by S-Fish, and his boy C-Webb takes the heat for this all the time. Truly a major error, but give it to the right person.

I had always heard that were screaming "Don't call Timeout!"