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-   -   Backcourt Violation Question (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/87248-backcourt-violation-question.html)

Jesse James Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:36pm

Hijacking the thread:

Same exact play as the OP, except the initial pass is an inbound pass.

Since it's important in this instance, when exactly does player control take place?

SNIPERBBB Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 819056)
Hijacking the thread:

Same exact play as the OP, except the initial pass is an inbound pass.

Since it's important in this instance, when exactly does player control take place?

Still bcv if a2 dribbled the ball and not just trying to gather the ball. Throw-in exception applies only to the first person touching the ball.

PG_Ref Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 819056)
Hijacking the thread:

Same exact play as the OP, except the initial pass is an inbound pass.

Since it's important in this instance, when exactly does player control take place?

See the definition of control in 4-12-1

Adam Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 819060)
Still bcv if a2 dribbled the ball and not just trying to gather the ball. Throw-in exception applies only to the first person touching the ball.

Even if the throwin hadn't been tipped, it would still be a violation.

A2's dribble established PC in the FC. He then took it into the BC with his dribble (the 3 pt rule only applies going from BC to FC). Violation.

Duffman Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 819051)
Another point to consider is that the 3 points rule for dribblers only applies to a dribbler going from BC to FC; not the other way around. So if you deemed A2's actions to be a dribble, he did establish PC in the FC just prior to the ball bouncing in the BC.

Correct, which was my thinking on why it was a BCV, although it looks like now I was over thinking it. The coaches argument stemmed from judgment on what constitues control. I judged the player to have control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it. The HC argued that control couldn't exist until after that second dribble at which time the ball had BC status.

As I understand the rule now is that once team control is established anywhere on the court, the ball achieves front court status, and is touched last in the FC by the offensive team, and first in the BC by the offensive team, that it is a BCV.

Am I learning anything?

La Rikardo Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:52pm

So for a ball to have front-court status, it simply needs to touch a player in the front court, right?

Adam Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duffman (Post 819068)
Correct, which was my thinking on why it was a BCV, although it looks like now I was over thinking it. The coaches argument stemmed from judgment on what constitues control. I judged the player to have control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it. The HC argued that control couldn't exist until after that second dribble at which time the ball had BC status.

As I understand the rule now is that once team control is established anywhere on the court, the ball achieves front court status, and is touched last in the FC by the offensive team, and first in the BC by the offensive team, that it is a BCV.

Am I learning anything?

Yes, I would only add that due to the changes in TC on a throw in, PC needs to be established inbounds prior to or concurrent with the FC location of the ball.

As for the coach's argument. The dribble starts when the ball is batted, pushed, or thrown to the floor. We don't always know if it's a dribble or pass until the player touches it again, but that doesn't change when the dribble started (and thus PC began).

SNIPERBBB Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 819064)
Even if the throwin hadn't been tipped, it would still be a violation.

A2's dribble established PC in the FC. He then took it into the BC with his dribble (the 3 pt rule only applies going from BC to FC). Violation.

I did not say a dribble in this case would not trigger a bcv.

Adam Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by La Rikardo (Post 819071)
So for a ball to have front-court status, it simply needs to touch a player in the front court, right?

Or the floor. 4-4-1

Adam Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 819073)
I did not say a dribble in this case would not trigger a bcv.

Sorry, that was the impression I got from your reference to the throw in exception.
I was just pointing out that the throw in exception wouldn't apply anyway.

SNIPERBBB Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by La Rikardo (Post 819071)
So for a ball to have front-court status, it simply needs to touch a player in the front court, right?

It must either touch the court or a player in fc to have status.

Jesse James Wed Feb 01, 2012 01:59pm

Still with the hijacked-thread-inbound-pass play--Dribbler's first bounce hits the division line in the OP.

Since a dribbler needs two feet and the ball in frontcourt for frontcourt status, then how is it a backcourt violation?

Duffman Wed Feb 01, 2012 02:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 819081)
Dribbler's first bounce hits the division line in the OP.

If a dribbler needs two feet and the ball in frontcourt for frontcourt status, then how is it a backcourt violation?

The ball was touched by B2 who was in the FC prior to A2 dribbling it, giving it FC status.

bob jenkins Wed Feb 01, 2012 02:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by La Rikardo (Post 819071)
So for a ball to have front-court status, it simply needs to touch a player in the front court, right?

Read 4-Ball Location to get your answer.

Adam Wed Feb 01, 2012 02:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse James (Post 819081)
Still with the hijacked-thread-inbound-pass play--Dribbler's first bounce hits the division line in the OP.

If a dribbler needs two feet and the ball in frontcourt for frontcourt status, then how is it a backcourt violation?

Three points only applies to a dribbler going from BC to FC, not the other direction.


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