My New #1 Myth
 

For a few years, I've maintained a personal list of basketball's biggest rules myths. The existence of "over the back" has always topped my list, but I may have something to top it. I'd like some thoughts.

Varsity boys today (not working, I was a spectator): V down 2 points in the closing seconds. Shot is missed, put back is missed, H called for pushing foul, V will shoot two with :01 left. H-22 says F.U. (not sure to whom, some say an official, but I can't confirm that) and earns a T. Clear the lane, we're shooting four.

The first two free throws for V are missed. However, both technical free throws are nailed (different shooter). We got to overtime, where V eventually wins a 65-63 thriller on a buzzer beater.

Of course, some H fans say about the technical, "you don't make that call at that point in the game." Granted, there is significant emotion talking, and perhaps they didn't know what V-22 said, but I still find this to be a very common myth, even when you don't have a horse in the race, so I think it's more than just sour grapes talking. What's more, I find this myth to be a more damaging than most, because it's predicated upon the belief that the officials somehow take away games from the players, as opposed to enforcing the rules and their penalties, as we're obligated.

You don't hear this cry from fans nearly as much in football, when there's a pass interference penalty in the last minute. I could draw parallels to other sports, but the bottom line is this myth seems to exist mostly in basketball. Am I off base with this?

I've been taught that time and score are irrelevant to the enforcement of the rules. I'm curious why so many others think the opposite, when it's expected that way in other sports.

I don't think it's so much a myth as just sour grapes.

A myth is something people think is true but really is not, like being able to catch your own airball.

This is just someone's opinion about when to call a technical foul or not.

And, yes, I'd still call the T.

With me, it depends on how loud it was. If it's "under his breath" I will likely pass, but speak to him. If it's loud enough for all to hear, no choice..."T".

Lot of it stems from "let the players decide the game" mantra. They forget that we call things based on what the players do.

Nine years later, and this Buckeye still has to listen to people from Coral Gables complain about a pass interference call that "was late" and "shouldn't be made at that point in the game." So yes, you're off base.

Was listening to the V show on the radio tonight and Bob touched on this point as he was discussing the lack of a goaltending call near the end of the Syracuse/W.VA game.
He said that officials don't decide the games rather the players do when they foul at that time. He also said that the only way to officiate was to work each play from the start to the finish without regard to the time left or the score.

Three Point Game, Twelve Seconds Left ...
 

I had absolutely no problem making this call. No question in my mind. None:

http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post817585

From The Files Of The Mythbusters ...
 

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

Officials are on the court to be the only unbiased arbiters of the game. Officials are not concerned with who wins or loses, but only fairness and safety. Everyone else in that gym cares about winning, and therefore cannot look at the game objectively. Players commit fouls and violations; officials view those infractions, judge the action, and then apply the rules of the game to what they had viewed. The rules then determine the penalty.

Yes. See 2003 Feista Bowl.

Did I miss something here? I thought catching your own airball was legal (NFHS).

Just Move Along Everybody, Nothing To See Here, The Mythbusters Are On The Case ...
 

Which is why it's just a myth that it isn't legal.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6230/6...473e048e_m.jpg

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the referee considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

I was in T in 2-whistle game the other night and partner calls a travel due to a "self-pass". I told him what I saw on the play, and he understood.

Miami fans have more to complain about regarding the contact that took place AFTER the receiver first touched the ball. They don't even need to play the "late flag" card.

Anyway, that's one example from football. I still hear this significantly more in basketball. Maybe it doesn't really matter, though. A myth is a myth, and this one is a big one.

I think Sniper nails it. Some believe that, if an official blows his whistle late in the game, regardless of the reason, he's interjecting himself into the game. We all know better.

Why did you think that?

Depends how loud it was? Volume has got nothing to do with it. A player directs an f**k y*u to me it's a T....whether or not anyone else heard him.

Having done a lot of 5th/6th grade rec ball this season, I have been dealing with this constantly. "Over the back!"s and "He's reachin' in!"s are rampant. It's quite annoying to have to hold back my remarks and just call the correct game.

More toward your point Bainsey, I had a game yesterday that was close to the wire. B is down 2 and B1 drives the extremely cluttered lane and tries to force up a shot, and my opinion was that he was not fouled and touched the ball last before it went OOB. Coach B is upset, fine, I hand the ball to A and start going down the court. Assistant Coach B jumps off the bench as I am passing and yells YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME and I pop him with a T. I tell him to take a seat and he continues to stand and lowers his tone, begging me not to give him a T (I'm guessing he didn't want the game to be out of reach due to his actions). I didn't say anything but I was thinking to myself, too bad, if you didn't want that for your team, you would have stayed on the bench. A won by 4

I just don't get why this annoys people. Coaches and players are simply going to use these terms and I'm going to continue to call my game. We aren't going to take those words out of people's vocabularies and it's silly to even try.

You penalize the OTHER team by not making the call.

Here's why.

When people say "over the back" and "reaching" fouls, they perpetuate myths that all you have to do is invade someone's personal space to commit a foul. The smarter the fan base is, the easier the job for all of us.

Meanwhile, we can just sit back and say, "Oh well, that's just the way fans/coaches are." I don't believe that. I believe those that are interested in the game would like to know when they've believing in a myth. I've talked to a number of people that weren't aware of many of the rules we've come to learn, and these are people that are genuinely interested.

Do we teach these things during a game? No, that's very seldom the time or the place, especially at the high school level. We have jobs to do. However, I see no harm in getting the word out when fallacies take over facts. To the contrary, I believe they help, even if it takes a lot of small ripple effects along the way.

I agree, if I hear the F Bomb, it's a T. I heard BullSh!T and that was a T also.

There is no excuse ( maybe one, a hit to the man area ) for profanity.

A quiet "f#ck" that is likely out of personal frustration, and I'm the only one who hears it: I'll remind the player to watch her language.

A quiet "f#ck you," on the other hand.... If it's under her breath, I won't hear it. Conversely, if I hear it, it's not under her breath.

What annoys me probably the most is that I know there are older and less ambitious officials out there calling these fouls and somewhat validating these myths, in the eyes of the uninformed fan. This year, in an adult league I play in, I overheard an official explaining to one of my teammates about "over the back." He said as soon as the person behind "breaks the plane," its a foul. Of course I immediately informed my teammate this was certainly not the case.

Those officials are there for the paycheck and haven't cracked open a book or been to a meeting in years. I'm not sure we reach many of them no matter what we do.

Exactly, and combined with my youth, it gives me a harder time. Even though I know I'm right, I'm not getting any respect from the fans or coaches because "I'm a young guy who hasn't learned all the rules yet.":(

If you're in it for the respect of the fans and coaches, you're in the wrong job.

I think this is a stretch, and I think you continue to misuse the term "myth." Over the back and reach aren't myths. It is just terminology the average basketball person uses to describe general actions they think are illegal. Over the back almost universally applies to rebounding action.

What, do you want fans and coaches to yell "That's an illegal push in the back on the rebound!!" Come on.

Getting high and mighty about terms like these isn't going to change anything, if anything it's going to make you look either out of touch or a little too big for your britches. These kinds of terms aren't going away. The best you can do is learn how to communicate with coaches and players in spite of them.

"Pushing" "Displacement"

When a coach uses one of those terms (or some form thereof), my respect for him/her goes way up.

I wouldn't disagree with this if I hadn't had too many coaches ask for "reach" and "over the back" when there's obviously no contact. That said, I don't blame them. I blame the officials who should know better but still report fouls with this terminology.

Why hold back?

Coach: Over the back.
Official: No contact no foul, coach.
At this level on the next dead ball you could explain that on the back is a foul but over the back minus contact isnt. Sometimes on the back that doesnt result in possession consequence wont get a whistle.

Coach: He's reachin' in.
Official: Again, no contact no foul, coach.
At this level on the next dead ball you could explain how it would be tough for defenders to get steals without reaching.

JMO

That's exactly why there are myths. "Over the back" is the terminology used for the myth that reaching over another player's back without making contact is a foul. "Reaching" is the terminology for the myth that reaching across a dribbler's arm without making contact is a foul.

The correct response to "over the back" and "reaching" is they aren't fouls. Using them just promotes the idea that contact isn't a necessary component to a personal foul.

You're missing the point.

A push is not OVER the back. "Over" means zero contact. Look at FortMoney's "breaking the plane" example. THIS is the myth, and the words we choose can make or break myths.

You can't be afraid of looking "high and mighty" when dealing with these terms. You can get your point across without doing so. We're the officials. If we're not going to call "over the back" fouls, then perhaps we should say so.

I guess I assumed he was talking about fan comments. Best to hold back.

If he's talking about coaches, at the 5th/6th grade level, then I will give one quick "he didn't touch him" or "it's not illegal to reach, coach." After that, one warning that I don't need his help.

If that doesn't work, we're shooting free throws.

I had one use displacement earlier this season, except he was mocking my proper use of it a few minutes earlier. He earned my ignoring him for the rest of the half with that nonsense.

To you, maybe. To some (most?) it INCLUDES zero contact, but it also includes contact that isn't a foul, and contact that is a foul.

I think it's incorrect to say "over the back is never a foul." It might (or might not) be a foul -- and that's why it's insufficient to ... ask for? ... an over the back call.

On the contrary, when the player on the outside gets the rebound, coaches and fans yell "Over the back!" with no contact, or if their player got planted in the wall. It's not going away. Get over it.

According to your definition. A lot of coaches and fans use over the back to communicate that their player is getting pushed or otherwise displaced from behind by another rebounder, and it has nothing at all to do with the hands or arms.

I just had a game on Friday where two players went up for a rebound. Player from behind jumped into the back of the other player, displacing him and causing him to lose the rebound. I reported at the table a pushing foul. The coach, as I walked by, said "Please keeping watching the over the back like that. They've been doing it all night."

Just because you interpret a term to mean one thing doesn't mean everyone else does.

To me, when I hear "over the back," I just know people (coaches/fans) are irritated about rebounding action. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't let myself get all hot and bothered about it.

Exactly. Instead of spending your time worrying about whether or not it is a basketball "myth," spend your time engaging in constructive communication with coaches and players. Arguing about whether or not "over the back" is a myth, or what its exact meaning is, is a waste of time. Just be responsible for your own proper communication.

Well had they? You'd been missing fouls all night? I doubt that. My guess is the coach thought they were all fouls, even the ones where they just reached over the back. You finally got an actual foul, called it, and the coach thinks you've been missing a bunch. Just because the coach agrees that it was a foul doesn't mean he knows why.

Really? Isn't that what you're doing here?

I'm now confused
 

I thought I understood the discussion until Bainsey's, Eastshire's and JAR's latest responses.

Are you saying that coaches and fans ask for an "over the back" call when there is NO contact? I can't say that I've ever heard a coach ask for a foul with NO contact (unless the coach mistakenly believed there was contact). If that is true, then yes, that is a rules myth that I believe needs to be addressed at an appropriate time. I just can't remember ever hearing that from anyone.

That is something completely different than a request for an "over the back" foul when there is contact that is judged to be legal and/or incidental. In those situations, I just interpret the "over the back" request as the coach's or fan's biased opinion that the contact was not incidental but illegal contact, a judgement call not a rule myth. In this case, whether the coach says "over the back" or "pushing" or "displacement," I don't think it really matters?

Most of the time you're right, but when you work lower level games (MS and below), this myth pervades among fans and coaches. Mostly fans. When I decide to hear some fans, I hear this as often as the 3 second request. It doesn't bug me, but I find it sad.

I had to laugh out loud last week, in a middle school game, when the fans started screaming, "You've got to call something."

Constantly. Its worse the lower the level you go.

Absolutely. Just like any other call, they yell for the outcome which benefits their side. Any touch of the backboard is a T. Any fumble of the ball is a travel.
ANYTHING that happens near the division line is a backcourt violation. etc.

Yes, it is a waste of my time. I should probably get some work done.

Acting as if banding together as a brotherhood of officials to put a stop to the horrible myth of "over the back" is going to get people to stop saying it is just silly.

Dont forget hiGH dribbLES are carries. :D

I do not know a lot of officials (I would really have to think about a single one) reporting fouls like this and it is used often by players, coaches and fans.

Peace

I don't see it often, but it doesn't take many. The words themselves, as perpetuated by announcers and such, actually give the perception to fans that it's actually a foul to reach or go over someone's back.

Most high school coaches understand the difference, and the fans are the biggest whiners.

My point is it is apart of their vernacular, they do not get that usage from officials. It is one of those things passed down that no one corrects and they actually think it is a foul. I hear this every single game or a coach going crazy over this and not a single official on the floor used that language. Now of course this could be based on different areas and different coaches and officials, but I hear it no matter what is going on ("Over the back") at all levels I work and the coaches seriously think it is a foul.

Peace

There it is. I've only heard it from one partner, a former coach in his sixties. My son said he heard it from an official in a freshman game last week, and described the official as "elderly."

I see it mostly with newer officials.

I've seen it from older & newer officials... neither goes to camp.

That is not my main goal. My goal is to do this job the best I can, and because of my skill and knowledge, the fans and coaches respect my decisions. I'm reading Earl Strom's book and it is obvious that even though in the heat of the moment, everyone was ready to kill him, looking back nearly everyone regards him as one of the best officials ever to work in the NBA. Respect from fans and coaches should not be the purpose for the calls we make, but their disrespect sure does challenge me when I'm on the court.

He probably advocates the Frankenstein mechanic, too.

The creeping death foul?

He's Alive ...
 

Late-game T
 

I've told my own kids and other people for years: I don't give technical fouls or throw someone out of a game. Players/Coaches do that to themselves. I'm just the person who has to enforce it.

As you gain experience you will come to understand that as long as they're keeping score in a competitive setting & once the clock reads triple zeros, we will have a winner & a loser. Half of the people involved (coaches/players/fans) will not like your call half of the time.

You will either accept this or continue to let it bother you. Remember, our appearance, signals & court presence are what commands respect long before we blow our whistle. Our attitude toward pushback should be, "what I do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say."

We cannot control the respect of fans, but improving our call accuracy will lead to credibility & if we're lucky, everything else falls into place.

On this subject, what if a player claps his hands together after missing a shot and says "damn", obviously frustrated with himself. No hears it but the referee he's running beside back down the court? Isn't that a little much or would you T him up as well. Just curious, cause it happened.

Local standards apply.

Still slow, lost here as well.

Judgment.

In some areas, at some ages, to some referees, this would be profanity.

In other areas, at other ages, to other referees, a loud MF (to the ball, basket, self) would not be profanity.

In most areas, to most referees, the line is somewhere in the middle (and might depend on what else has happened that night).

As described, this is completely ignored by me.

Agreed as well. If it's a varsity game, 99.9% of the time I don't even bat an eye. Only if the player has been a turd and it needs to be addressed. That would be rare though.

If it's a middle school game, which I don't even do anymore, I might say something to the player and remind him to watch his language.

HS Boy's Varsity, blow-out game, kid hit 4 in a row and missed the 5th. Had no bearing on the game and wasn't a big issue. I just thought it was a little over the top. Explanation given to the coach was exactly what I said. No big deal, but I've heard worse and nobody heard this......

If no one else heard it, and "damn" was all he said, I wouldn't consider it anywhere close to over the top, and I wouldn't feel like the coach needed an explanation. Just my two cents...

I meant I thought the call was over the top.

I think they at least need to fill people in on why the call was made. If not, you got a 17 year old kid explaining how he "didn't say anything!!!!". Just sayin

Oh, they called this. In that case, explain to the player and coach that they're always better off not giving us a decision to make.

That is true

Stealing some of this for my pre-game.

Its all recycled.

I thought rebounding your own airball was legal (4.44 Sit. B). I read the sentence by fiasco, "A myth is something people think is true but really is not, like being able to catch your own airball.", as people think it's true that you are able to catch your own airball but it's not. I just interpreted the sentence differently. I had a long discussion with a parent of one of the VB players last week about this and had to show him the case play before he would believe me.

You're right. I mis-read your post. Catching your own airball is legal and it's a myth that you can't. But that's one rule I think fans are starting to learn. I'm starting to see instances where it happens and no moans come from the crowd.

Next step: high dribble.

That's what we need: A good ol' myth checklist.

I hope you forgot a smiley. Otherwise the next 2 pages will be dominated by a certain official from Connecticutt.

Fixed.

Hopefully a shorter version than we've seen before. Top ten, one sentence each, or no one not hooked on nutmeg will read it.

The Land Of Two Person Crews ...
 

No. It's a certain little corner of The Land of Steady Habits.

1. Over the back
2. Sliding on the floor with the ball is automatically walking
3. You have to be standing still with your hands holding your crotch to take a charge
4. Dribbling high is a carry
5. Awkward plays are always illegal

Etc etc

What's walking?

That is not a good thing to say. A player can reach in or go over the back and make contact with his opponent without fouling him.

That was his point...

No, his point was that there can't be a foul without contact. The coach is going to hear it that way and in his mind add the unspoken, "if there's any contact it's a foul."

No. The coach says, "Hey, that is over the back." He says, "No contact, no foul." He should say, "No illegal contact which hindered the opponent from preforming his normal movements."

That sentence is too long, IMO, so unless the coach has actually asked a question, I don't respond to "over the back." Oddly, I've never had a coach actually ask why this isn't a foul; they simply yell "over the back."

Maybe, maybe not. How can you know for sure that's what the synapses are brewing?

Did you forget a smiley?

Me I'm going with "he didn't touch him coach" or "he went straight up".

If the coach infers my first statement to mean that any contact during a rebound is a foul that's his problem. The minimum requiremet for a foul is contact, it's not the only requirement.

Maybe I'm jaded, but I assume they'll take the meaning that was furthest from my intent. Short phrases are best, but they often leave too much room for misinterpretation.

Official: "No contact, no foul."
Coach: "But there was contact!"

Now you've started a conversation. I would only possibly say this if I know 100% for certain there was no contact; but even then, on the next play when there is some incidental contat, you've set yourself up for another conversation.

Experience.

That is, while we can't know "for sure" that's what is going on, we know there's a 92.8% chance it's true.

I use either "no displacement" or "no advantage" or "incidental contact" when I choose to address this.

Do a ton of youth ball on the weekends so I get all these more than most as fans seem to a be a bit more knowledgeable as the teams get older.

1) 3 seconds myths. For the life of me I don't understand why people yell the loudest about things they understand the least. People don't understand things like a try stops the count, or you need team control for a 3 second violation. You see the former a lot in youth ball when you end up with ten kids in the lane as two tall kids take turns exchanging air balls over the rim because nobody knows how to use the damn back board. Inevitably you end up with someone counting 1-2-3-4-5-6-7.... as this happens.

My favorite was earlier this year when I had a fan literally screaming at the top of her lungs for 3 seconds during an inbound play.

2) Sliding with possession of the ball is traveling.

3) The defense has to be 100% set and stationary to take a charge.

Really?:rolleyes:

I said "a bit". :p

It's true, in general. I've noticed the fans of some schools also know more than at other schools.

I was actaully referring to the fact that on the whole HS basketball fans tend to be a bit more knowledgable than youth league basketball fans, if for no other reasons than they have sat through more games. But your point is also taken, and while it's nice to see, it's sometimes worse.

I can handle the idiots who stand and scream about stuff and clearly have no idea what they are talking about. What gets under my skin is the very rare occassion when someone from the crowd corrects me on some obsucre rule and they are actually right. :o

Yeah, of course you can't say that whole long sentence. But if you shorten it too much like the one poster did then other problems are created.