Not facing the opponent
 

A-1 goes airborne. Defender B-2 has his spot in the lane, but facing in another direction (turned about a 90 degrees from the path of the shooter). Instinctively, the defender jumps, and has clear verticality, but is not facing the shooter when contact is made (shooter's torso into defender's side). This was an easy blocking foul, as the defender wasn't facing the shooter at all.

Generally speaking, and outside of an outstretched limb from the shooter, when would you have a charge -- or nothing -- when contact occurs, and the defender isn't facing the dribbler/shooter?

Whenever the defender is entitled to his spot -- as in your play.

Isn't getting to the spot first only half the battle, though? What if you're not facing your opponent (4-23-2b)?

If the player hadn't jumped, what would you have called?

By the way, it seems to me that LGP is required for airborne verticality to apply. But the alternate question is whether the spot to which a player is entitled includes the air above the floor. I'm not sure it does, as 4-23-1 says the player is entiteld to his spot "on the playing floor."

People insist on applying the guarding rule as the only way for a defender to "take a charge." If B1 has his back to A1 and A1 pushes him to the floor, you're calling a block on B1 because he didn't have LGP?

LGP offers protection to moving defenders. A stationary defender is entitled to his spot on the floor (and the vertical space above it) regardless of whether he has LGP.

Facing the opponent would only effect this play if the defender moved away from the spot.

10-6-7

This is spot on with my thinking of the rule.

Peace

Great explanation +1

There it is. That rule says nothing about charging into an opponent with LGP. I'd say 10-6-11 applies here, too.

Thanks for that, and the other feedback. I will now serve a self-imposed one-week suspension for my error. :D

Oh please. If I had to take a week off for every error, I'd never be able to post. We're all here to learn and improve, and doing so incurs no penalty. :)

Very well said.

And bainsey, doesn't rule 11-2-4 say that you can't combine self-imposed suspensions with injury recovery time? I think it's clear that they can't be served concurrently. (But I do hope your achilles heals quickly)

Not by my interpretation. ;)

Then again, considering my OP, take strong consideration of what that's worth.

:p

From the 07-08 NFHS Simp. & Ill. book
 

-talking about how the defensive player is entitled to their legal spot on the court, resulting in ruling this type of play a PC foul.<a href="http://s1174.photobucket.com/albums/r620/HawkeyeCubP/?action=view&amp;current=Publication1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/r620/HawkeyeCubP/Publication1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Then you need to give the moving player time to stop / change direction (not more than two steps).

LGP grants the right to move and jump. Without it a player doesn't have the right to do either when contact occurs. Here is the rule on verticality...

Verticality applies to a legal position. Following are the basic components of the principle of verticality:
ART. 1 . . . Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must be legal.
ART. 2 . . . From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane.
ART. 3 . . . The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air.

So, until they have LGP, they may have a legal spot by getting there first but when they jump without having LGP, they forfeit the right to their spot....in a sense, they're moving to a new spot above the one they started from and the verticality rule doesn't allow them to do so.

Actually, he/she isn't. He/She is only entitled to the space above if he/she has LGP.

Hmmm, then let's try this.

A-1 is guarded by B-2, who is in the lane and facing A-1 (has LGP).

A-1 passes to A-3, who drives and goes airborne. B-2, who is not facing A-3 but remains on his spot, jumps straight up. There is body contact between A-3 and B-2. Blocking foul?

And me.

You're talking about jumping. I didn't mention jumping.

Player A1 catches a pass near 3 point line, and squares up to shoot. B1 arrives too late to contest the shot, so he takes a position in front of A1 with his back to him intending to box him out. He turns to see A1 still holding the ball, looking into the post. He jumps straight up with his hands up, hoping to deflect the pass. A1 puts the ball on the floor and plows into B1's back. Ruling: blocking foul on B1

not bloody likely

Nah, here is what you said...

The verticality rule says that must have LGP to have the right to the space above them....whether by jumping or raising their arms.

How is that the case? Rebounding we do not require a player to have LGP to be legal on contact in other cases? Where does it say there must be LGP for verticality?

Peace

It also says: The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender........

As I posted in post #16....http://forum.officiating.com/basketb...tml#post817382

Rule 4-45 VERTICALITY
Verticality applies to a legal position. Following are the basic components of the principle of verticality:
ART. 1 . . . Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must be legal.

I believe the difference is that it is not the same between defending/guarding and rebounding and that, in the case of rebounding, the initial requirements are not LGP but a legal rebounding position as established in 4-37...and it is not the same as LGP, it is much less restrictive.

The rights of verticality come into play only when the relevant legal position is obtained.

I misspoke a little in my question. What I really meant to say was where does it say that all contact with a player involve all players to gain LGP? There are case plays and interpretations in the S&I books or pictures that show the NF wants a foul on players that run over players that are not facing them. I do not see any examples where someone is called for this just because they did not once face the player with the ball? And verticality is not just about someone jumping it is about staying in your vertical plane.

Peace

Fully stationary players, yes. But not moving/jumping.

Indeed, but you can't take advantage of verticality (by either raising arms or jumping) until the requirements of verticality are met (LGP when defending, or legal rebounding position if rebounding).

Thanks, Camron. The rule says players are entitled to their spot "on the playing floor." Not in the air.

If a player is stationary, then jumps or raises his arms in his own vertical plane, he can't possibly contact anyone unless that player leaves his own vertical plane. Then what?

So, are you saying, if you're not facing the ball handler (and therefore don't have LGP), you don't have the rights to verticality, that if you jump straight up, and contact takes place (assuming it's not a stiff-arm or elbow from the shooter), this would be a blocking foul?

I am not buying that at all. And since a lot of LGP situations would not apply like a rebound or loose ball situations where there is no position to establish and a ball handler is not involved to face. But to suggest that verticality only applies if LGP is present is silly to me and does not make any since. And really does not make since when you read POEs and examples given to highlight that rule.

Peace

I am. They can stand there and be legal but they don't get the any of the rights of LGP if they don't have LGP.

So you're also saying that if B1 is standing facing the basket with his arms raised in anticipation of a rebound, and A1 drives in, and in the process of taking a shot contacts B1's totally stationary arm, it can be a foul on B1?

As the rule is written, it can be.

Will I call it? Maybe not.

The rule is pretty clear about when verticality applies and when such actions are allowed (only with LGP).

Verticality explains all these things that one can do that are legal. If a stationary defender jumps straight up and is contacted by the offensive player, where's the part which says this is illegal?

I does git wordie at times . . .
 

Wow! This thread is the result of yet another case of poor wording by the editors of the Rules Book.
It seems to me that in 4-23 - Guarding, and 4-37 - Rebounding, and 4-45 - Verticality, there are two subjects addressed, in very sloppily structured paragraphs, or Articles.
4-23-1, third sentence, deals with players on the playing court, without reference to LGP: "Every player is entitled to a spot on the playing court provided such player gets there first without illegally contacting an opponent."
The following sentence introduces that statement's relation to actions of opponents: "A player who extends an arm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent is not considered to have legal guarding position if contact occurs." Such action can occur whether or not the player is guarding an opponent.
4-23-2 defines an intial LGP, which is a new subject. It is not intended to define a "player position".

4-37-1 defines rebounding.
4-37-2 describes obtaining or maintaining legal rebounding position.
4-37-2 d. states: "To obtain or maintain legal rebounding position, a player may not: Violate the principle of verticality."
And 4-37-3 reiterates the statement in 4-23-1, regarding player position. Thus, in rebounding, guarding is not neccessarily involved, but verticality is.

4-45 begins with "Verticality applies to a legal (player) position." It is
not a statement about LGP.
Then, Articles 1-7 deal with Verticality, in reference to opponents, and thus, LGP.
Although it is an extrapolation, the common understanding of Verticality is that it applies to a player having the right to his place when in contact with the floor, and when jumping within his vertical area. The notion that when a player,/defender jumps "within his vertical area" he forfeits his right to verticality, seems anathema to the generally accepted legal/illegal actions of players, whether they are, at that moment, in offensive or defensive attitude.
Thus, Cameron, I respectfully disagree with your stance on the subject.

So can a secondary defender draw a PC in the RA (restricted area)?

The RA doesn't allow ILGP to be obtained in there, but by your logic, a secondary defender doesn't need LGP to draw PC foul in the RA if he's not moving when contact occurs, even though they made it clear that no secondary defender can be there no matter how long they've been stationed in there.

I've always said that.

NBA and FIBA made it cleared in their rules books that a player, with or without LGP, is entitled to a vertical position even to the extent of holding his arms above his shoulders.

1) This has generally been a HS discussion, and the RA is NCAA.

2) It's clear that the rule says something to the effect that "a player is entitled to his/her spot on the floor provided s/he gets there legally first." Standing in the RA is NOT getting there "legally."

3) Your'e wrong about his logic.

But, just for the sake of clarity, does that position apply to an airborne player?

I didn't say they always forfeit when they jump, only when they've not earned the right to it by having LGP (in the case of guarding) or LRP (rebounding).

In the generally accepted actions, the players RARELY have their backs to the opponent involved in the play....they are usually facing them.

I think this is the reason that this does not draw more attention in the wording of the rules. But I still don't see anything which says that a player without LGP who leaves his feet could not then still draw a charge if the offensive player initiates the contact.

He's entitled to a spot on the playing court. Not to the air space above it.

Get's 'Em Every Time ...
 

It's the old "No Fly Zone" rule.

So, what do we do about 4-45-3: "The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air."?

This statement, and others, intimate, and indeed indicate, that the vertical plane is considered in regards to contact between opponents, whether the opponents are grounded or airborne.

I still see the statements regarding verticality as applying to two subjects:
1) a player and his inherent right to a position on the floor
2) a player and his rights regarding contact with an opponent, be it a defender or an offensive player.

Where does one find reference to "a spot on the playing court" meaning "in contact with the playing surface"? Is not the concept of verticality meant to define the reality of movement by all players, in a game which intrinsically involves leaving the playing surface vertically?

So, A1 facing B1, with his back to B2, who has the ball, sees that B1 looks upward, and reaches upward, as if to receive a pass from B2. A1, thinking to foil the pass attempt, jumps, within his vertical plane. While in the air, B2 drives into the back of A1. Blocking foul on A1?...Really?

I didn't say that either. I said they don't have the right to the space above them if they've not earned it by getting proper position (i.e., LGP).

If the contact is in the torso, the jump doesn't change the point of contact. However, if they jump and make contact with a shooter's arms above them, they will only be able to do so legally if they have obtained LGP.

But, if they had LGP, they can legally jump up such that it results in contact in the space above them and not be guilty of a foul.

You can't leave out the requirements that must be met to have the right to 4-45-3.

Cited again....


ART. 1. Legal guarding position must be obtained initially and movement thereafter must be legal.
ART. 2 . . . From this position, the defender may rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his/her vertical plane.
ART. 3 . . . The hands and arms of the defender may be raised within his/her vertical plane while on the floor or in the air.

If the defender sticks his arms out over the shooter, and the shooter goes straight up, creating contact, foul on the defense, whether he previously had LGP or not. So, in the unlikely event that the shooter goes up, leans out over the defender, then the defender goes straight up, I don't see how this can also be a foul on the defender.

The verticality rule clearly says the defender can only do that if they have LGP. If they don't have LGP, they don't have the right to that space. If they are extending their arms into a space they do not have a right to (or jump into that same space) and cause contact sufficient for a foul, they have fouled.

The player with the ball isn't given any more protection or consideration. They both have a way to earn the right to the space above them. If they earn it, they get it. If not and there is contact, the one who causes the contact is at fault, not necessarily the one who is outside their vertical space.

How did the player with the ball earn the space above him?



If you can lean over the other guy and still draw a foul, that's quite a consideration.

By occupying it first.

You mean, just like the defender did?

If he gets there first, sure, but if the shooter is there first, no.

Cameron,

I get where you are coming from, but in order to call the game that way, I would need a more official interpretation than what we talk about here. All other indication they are not asking for this kind of restrictions on a vertical player.

Peace

This is what FIBA rules say:

"During the game, each player has the right to occupy any position (cylinder) on the playing court not already occupied by an opponent.

This principle protects the space on the floor which he occupies and the space above him when he jumps vertically within that space."

And this what NBA rules say:

"A player is entitled to a vertical position even to the extent of holding his arms above his shoulders, as in post play or when double-teaming in pressing tactics."

FIBA's verticality rules clearly apply to an airborne player.

NBA's verticality rules kind of suggest that it apply to an airborne player, but who knows sure?

One thing for sure is that in the NBA and FIBA a defender doesn't need LGP to be in a vertical position.

NCAA rules state that a secondary defender shall not established ILGP in the RA. But a lot of you say that a defender doesn't need LGP to draw a charge. So if a secondary defender doesn't need LGP to draw a charge, and the RA ONLY talks about ILGP, then why can't a secondary defender stand in the RA, facing the crowd, and getting plow from behind and still draw a charge?