Upgrading
 

Situation: BV game, we're at A's basket, and A is up by 25 with maybe 4 minutes to play. The boys are getting a little chippy, but we've been calling fouls consistently for displacement, bumping that creates disadvantage, etc. The game is by no means out of control.

I'm C, with the ball on the other side, and right in front of me A1 goes past B1 and elbows him in the nose. I see the whole play, and I've got the foul before B1 hits the floor (he ended up with a bloody nose, but I didn't see that till later). I report the foul on A1, and it's his 5th, so he's done.

As I report the foul, B coach says, "Pretty hard foul." I agree. As I look back on this, I probably should have upgraded it. I hardly ever see this kind of thing in my games, so I didn't consider upgrading at the time.

Thoughts? If you had been my partner and had seen the bloody nose (even if you hadn't seen the foul) would you have asked me about upgrading?

Was it deliberate or was the elbow accidental?

The kids were the same height. Could an elbow to the nose by a player without the ball cutting across the lane have been accidental?

Had a player go up for the dunk, got rejected & landed on the side of his head (no foul just the downward force from the blocked shot) when he got up there was blood everywhere.

So to answer your question, no, I would never consider offering information for an upgrade based on a bleeding player.

Like I always tell em, if you dont want any contact go play ping-pong!!

If I saw the whole play as you did, an off ball elbow to the face could definitely become an INT instead of a team control foul.

Yes. Player holding their arms like the coach wants for whatever reason they think it's needed turns at the wrong time.

Whenever a guy goes down in a weird way, I always close in to see up close and to prevent other stuff from starting. Perhaps you would have seen blood if you closed down?

I might have asked you about upgrading if I knew you didn't know about the blood.

4 minute double minor for drawing blood.:D

What does blood have to do with the act?

I've seen plenty players take a charge or get blasted by a legal screen & the result was blood everywhere. Blood alone isnt enough for an upgrade...
'"we've got a bleeder."

Taking a charge and an off-ball elbow to the nose are very different fouls.

Mos Def!! My point is the act itself is what we should rule on not simply because a player is bleeding.

Apples and oranges. The OP appears to be a deliberate act - not a basketball play.

I would have conferred with partners and considered upgrading to at least intentional. But it's easy to second guess from here. At least you got the foul imagine if you were looking at a different matchup and you didn't see it at all.

If my partners had no look or no whistle on the play, I dont need them to confirm that the player is bleeding.

Smitty said it right: an elbow to the nose is not a basketball play.

Not sure where you're going with this, but the conference would not be to confirm the player is bleeding. It would be to confer on what happened and whether they saw it or had any input. I may not confer at all and on my way to the table decide it was an intentional. Regardless, I think it would be fine based on the OP to upgrade the call after the initial call.

Why are we discussing blood for changing a foul to intentional or flagrant?
Any elbow you should be thinking maybe intentional. If you find it as an accident keep it as common, if it is intentional or extreme contact then rule it as intentional or flagrant. If there is blood then there is blood. We don't call a foul based on biofluids. (includes tears for girls officials).

Ummm again...

I agree with the rest of what you say! I'm simply saying that blood in & of itself isnt a deciding factor on whether to upgrade or not. Thats all.

That's cool. I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't conferring to see if the player was bleeding, which is what you implied. My original response to your scenario was to declare it an orange in the discussion about apples. Blood had no bearing on my comments.

Yezzir!

I think this says it all. If you saw the whole play and are still second guessing yourself, then you're questioning your own judgement.

I would say maybe a couple of things might help. Take your time to report it, this might include calling a partner over just to think outloud with him, to give yourself a moment to decide if an upgrade is necessary.

Or take your time on the spot of the foul, making sure players are alright, replaying the play in your mind and deciding to upgrade or not.

Secondly, I wouldn't lose sleep over it, the fact that you haven't dealt with too many of these situations is a good thing. Now you have it under your belt and will hopefully be able to access that information next time you see it.

I don't necessarily see it that way at all. It may have been but the OP gives no indication of how the elbow happened, just that it did.

I once, while playing, gave a guy a gash on his brow that needed stitches and I didn't even know I touched him. He was a friend and I'd never do such a thing on purpose to anyone, much less a friend. My elbow, in a normal basketball move, clipped his brow just right and popped it open. I did have the ball and was wondering, as I drove the the basket, how I had beat him so badly when he was no longer with me.

Elbows meet faces all the time in normal plays. Elbows are moving parts of the body that simply move a lot when players are running around. It may or may not have been deliberate...I think you' have to be there to make that judgement (or trust the OP if he had said it was...and he didn't).

I based it on the OP saying this a few posts in, which led me to believe he thought it was intentionel:

But reading that a few times I am not sure if he was sure or not. Anyway, I was saying apples/oranges on the assumption that it was intentional. And you know what happens when I assume...

On the issue of blood and how much it is a factor. I was waiting for somebody to point out that nosebleeds have been know to occur spontaneously, all by themselves for no apparent reason.

Did you upgrade?
:D

Was he suggesting?
 

In the OP, was your partner suggesting that you think about upgrading? I appreciate a partner who does so if they feel its warrented.

My partners did not approach me. I don't think they saw the play at all.

I think Toren correctly diagnosed that I am second-guessing myself based on not having seen this kind of "play" much. My discomfort with not having upgraded is somewhat mitigated by the facts that (a) I did get the TC foul, so B got possession, (b) it was a blowout, so the fact that B did not get FT's didn't affect the outcome, and (c) the player who threw the elbow did it with his 5th foul and was out of the game anyway.

Still, I wish I'd gone with INT. Definitely filed away for future reference.

I think he responding to this portion of the OP:

I'm not not coming to my partner to discuss upgrading just because I see blood. I would only come if I too had seen the act in question.

I still don't see how you would still think of the INT when you haven't even described how the elbow met the nose.

Usually your first reaction is the correct one. Don't beat yourself up over how you replay in your mind. You likely made the right call. :)