ROP, twice in one game
 

Last week, competitve MS girls.

Start of the second quarter, V's ball, my partner is the R. The second warning horn sounds, and both teams are still huddling. My partner looks at me, I nod, and he sets the ball down and starts counting.

Team V doesn't have a clue, but Team H comes out of the huddle, sees the ball, and high-tails it to the opposite side to pick it up. Tweet, DOG warning, and V has been bailed out.

Cut to the third quarter, 30-second time-out, V's ball, opposite sideline. H is on the floor in time, but V is still huddling at the second buzzer. This time, I perform the ROP, but this time, the right time sprints to beat the five-second count.

The humorous part was a loudmouth in the second row who didn't like the ROP one bit. (Tweet, red ball) "Give them a warning, give them a warning." (Ball set.) That's crap! That's CRAP!" I wonder how he and his team missed both warning horns, both times.

Not that its a biggie, but did you tell the coaches in pregame that we expect them to be ready to play on the 2nd horn?

Did your partner tell the home to leave the ball alone before they got to it OOB?

1) Team V should have a clue. Get over to the huddle and loudly announce "2nd horn, ball's being put in play".

2) Anytime the ball is put down for a RPP, the administering official should loudly announce "White ball" or whatever color should be getting the ball.

JMHO based on listening to some old-timers.

We should also sound the whistle prior to beginning the ROP.

#3...and sound the whistle extra long (maybe a tweet-tweeeeeeeeet ) and loud before doing so.

Was just going to ask if the administering official sounded his/her whistle before putting the ball on the floor and starting a count...that's part of the RPP.

Forgot to mention that part also.

This is part of my pregame talk with the coaches:

"Remember, the first horn ends the timeout, and we're going to put the ball in play immediately after the second horn."

Then, when the coach protests after I use ROP, I can simply say "we talked about in pregame coach, remember?"

+1

They cannot claim anything is "unfair" when we lay it out for them & then follow through.
"Coach, you do remember our pregame conversation?" :D

Shouldn't the opposing team touching the ball out of bounds be a technical foul?

No, because the ball is not in possession of the thrower nor being passed to a teammate outside of the boundary line. So it would just be a DOG for crossing the throw-in boundary-line plane.

Again - please correct that to say "and we're going to sound the whistle immediately after the second horn and then put the ball in play."

The first horn is a warning that the timeout is about to end - it does not end the timeout. They still have 15 seconds...

The pre-game conference is not for explaining individual rules, including this one.

jmo

I dont think us saying, "have them ready to play on the 2nd horn" is explaining anything.

Agreed. They are entitled to their full time.

Seriously
 

You used the ROP In a girls MS game. Wow:mad:

"Huddle on first horn, break on second" is what I say in pre-game.

Believe it or not, it does drive the point home. I'm pretty liberal with the amount of time I give them compared to say...JV but they don't get all day before I put the ball down. It sends a clear message to the coach.

I think he was caught off guard, and by the time he realized it, the reaction time of any players would have been too late.

Affirmative, mechanic followed correctly.

I seldom go ROP in any MS B-level game (7th grade and under), as they usually match up after every single intermission and time-out (and I'm cool with that). For A-level games when the teams are competitive, different story.

We never cover this in pre-game.

Agreed. It's not like we're explaining the details of the rule.

The two things I say to a coach during pre-game are pointing out the clearly marked box and ready to play on 2nd horn.

I'm glad I read this because I have been a little reluctant to put the ball back in play. It seems coaches want to push the limits and now w/ adding this to my pregame w/ coaches they will know what is happening.

What does "huddle on the first horn" mean?

I think he's talking about the last part of the time out. "Defense on three."

I read this as, you can still be in a huddle when the first horn goes, but you better be on the floor when I hear the second.

Nope, b/c he said break on the 2nd horn. Not on the floor by the 2nd horn.

Same here. Often enough, these coaches think they can take their time.

Better to learn the rule at that level than to learn it at the Varsity level.

(and, if they'd learn it there, it wouldn't be as much of an issue later on.)

I am not against getting teams out of the timeout and back on the floor ready for play. I usually try to make a comment during pre-game to say let's hustle out of timeouts and after balls that are out of bounds.

However, in this situation both teams were late out of the timeout, so you are actually penalizing one team when both teams have violated getting out of the timeout. It might be "right" under the rules, but objectively you are penalizing the V.

This would be completely different if V was standing on the court and H was in the huddle. Or vice versa. Again, I am not against getting teams back out on the court - I think its needed. However, I have witnessed officials do this before as a coach and I think more often than not, it's the official trying to show up the coaches.

Disagree. You are doing what you are supposed to do. If a team is late getting out, it is penalizing itself. If you are saying the offense is the only one penalized because they lose the ball while the defense loses nothing, it is their own fault. If they were out, they could be shooting an uncontested layup.

bs

No sir. It's the official saying, "Time's up. Let's move this game along."

I got ya beat
 

I used the ROP procedure 3 times in a Girls JV game. Twice for Team A and once for Team B. I cover this in the pregame with my partners as well as the pregame with the Coaches/Captains.
If I am the 'off' official for the TO, then after the 1st horn I will get right next to the team huddle and loudly verbalize "1st horn. Hustle out". Then I move to my position. I am not one of those officials that hang around the huddle. After the 2nd horn they politly clap their hands and softly suggest to break up the huddle.

We're told to get loud at the first horn. If they don't come out, I'm repeating myself every five seconds or so. It's easier with 3, but my voice carries well enough in most games to be heard clearly by each team when I'm standing at the division line.

Like it or not, putting the ball on the court and counting makes you look like a jackass who is there to collect his paycheck which is the same guy who is pissed when the game isn't over in 32 and half minutes.

I'll say it again, there is a time and place where this is necessary. However, you can watch games at every level with the best officials in the country, there is no way they are putting the ball on the floor 99% of the time as soon as the 2nd horn sounds.

And standing there begging the teams to come out....

Or allowing one coach to use extra time without burning another TO....

I personally don't care what coaches think, but I've had more complaints that I give too much time to the other team. No one here says put it down on that second horn. But if they aren't even breaking the huddle, that's a problem that will easily be corrected by RPP.

And the "best officials in the country" don't have to put it down. The coaches all know better. This is more commonly necessary at MS and JV level games.

You'd be mistaken.

I worked with one of the top officials in the state a couple years back who did just that. He had told the captain, he had told the coaches in the pre-game meeting. On the first timeout where they were a bit slow, he prodded them out. Next timeout, he put the ball down right after the 2nd horn.

The coach who had possession later said to him, with a smile, "<Name>, you only warned us 3 times" and some other words basically saying they were fairly instructed.

Some officials may not be able to pull it off so smoothly, bit it is done.

That statement makes you look like the jackass. You're speaking as a coach, so it really has no merit. The RPP as a very effective tool when needed.

As I continue to say, there is a time and place. If you have warned both teams and let them know in pre-game is definitely deserved. Based on the original post they hadn't discussed it or even warned either team. They just put the ball down.

So... if we dont review EVERY rule & situation in pregame then we cant call it?
Sounds like the coach that gets whacked & says "you never warned me!"

I am one who doesn't mention it. And I'm in no hurry to put the ball on the floor.

However, the first time the huddle isn't broken on the *second* horn, I'm telling the coach to get out quicker, that we're ready to go on the second horn. The next time they're still huddled up when that second horn goes, the ball's on the floor about 3-4 seconds later and I'm counting.

*There's never a third time.* Why? Cause they know we mean business and that I'll do it again if they stay in the huddle too long.

I've put exactly 3 balls on the floor this season and I've worked 35 games, varsity and above. Not once did I even think I was "sticking it to the coach" or in a hurry to get out of there. I don't think allowing timeouts to drag from 60 to 90+ seconds is good for the game.

2-12 Timers Duties

Art. 4 Sound a warning signal 15 seconds before the expiration of an intermission or time-out, immediately after which the players shall prepare to resume play..........

On top of that, many places an official approaches the huddle at the first horn to say, "First horn, white! Let's go!" (stupid and redundant imo)

Assuming part of this procedure was done, consider yourself duly warned.

I had a Jr High game once where I used the ROP procedure after a timeout. It was right by the bleachers and a parent was screaming "You can't do that! It's your job to teach the girls!"

I turned around and said, "Well, this is how you teach them," tweeted my whistle and started my count.

About 50% of the time I put the ball down, I hear parents yelling, "He's counting, hurry up!"

Oddly, the defense hardly ever seems to be late.

You consider the "first horn" warning by the official to be stupid? It's standard procedure everywhere I've lived.

If the resumption of play procedure has been followed, is not the ball then at the disposal of the thrower, whomever that may turn out to be?

I believe the rule actually says "possession" and not "disposal".

Just checked. Reads: "...touches or dislodges the ball while in possession of the thrower or being passed to a teammate outside the boundary line "

It's standard procedure here. But if they didn't hear/react to the horn, why would the official repeating the warning a second later be helpful?

It's a POE for NCAA-M. Guess it's been a big enough problem at the college level that they want the officials to be stupid and redundant.

Believe me, it helps.

Sometimes, maybe it does. Sometimes, it obviously doesn't.

Sometimes, definitely it does; just because the success rate is less than 100% does not mean it's 0%.

Coaches tune out horns sometimes, a voice in the huddle will sometimes break the concentration.

You MUST make eye contact with the coach when you alert "first horn" at the 15 second warning in a time out.
This happened to me ...once, and never again..... when the 1st horn sounded, I went to the huddle and said "First Horn". The gym was packed and very loud. I did not notice whether the coach heard me....When the second horn sounded, team B was on the court and ready to play....Team A was still huddled.......Partner put the ball on the floor...Resumption of play.....Coach A was unaware that either horn had had sounded due to the noise in the gym.....
Don't let yourself get into a bad situation as it is easy to avoid in this case.
Fortunately, no violation occurred, but a good teachable moment for us.
Yes, the coach SHOULD have someone watching the time, but if not, you can avoid problems by simple actions.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I won't disturb a head coach -- that's what the handful of assistants are for. If I tell one of them, I've fulfilled my duty.

Agreed. Any game loud enough for this to be an issue will have enough ACs that I can find one. I'm not waiting for eye contact; particularly in a two-whistle game where I'm going to both huddles.

Struckhoffian musings
 

Thanks for that. It led me to read further on the matter of a defense player grabbing the ball placed on the spot as part of resumption of play.

10-3-5a provides that "[A player shall not ... Delay the game by such acts as] a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play" and provides for a technical foul as penalty.

If the ball has been removed from the spot by a defender, it has been prevented from being made live promptly by the in-bounding team, its malingering notwithstanding.

Moreover, if grabbing a ball that was placed at the spot as part of resumption of play is a delay of game, does not 10-3-5 determine that delay in this circumstance requires a T with no warning?

The ball is already live. The defense grabbing the ball doesn't prevent it from becoming live.