2 or 3 points?
 

1) A player attempts a 3 point shot from behind the arc. The defense takes off from inside the arc and clearly blocks the shot. The shot goes in. What is the call?

2) A player from behind the 3 point arc attempts to pass the ball into the post. The defense inside the 3 point line deflects the ball into the basket. What is the call?

1. 3

2. 2

5-2-1
5.2.1c

I say 3 & 3.

This...

backed up by that...

+1

Read this wrong at first. If it does not touch the same team or floor it is counted as a 3.

We just had this question, and Camron talked me out of counting play 2 as a 3. :(

Had this one wrong
 

I always thought I had read somewhere if it was a pass and then touches someone inside the 2 point area, then it would be counted as 2 points.

Am I confusing two things here?

Sorry talking play 2

If it's clear that the touch by the defense is what made it go in, this is a 2.

Here's the text of 5-2-1:

A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.

<s>I agree if it is apparent that A1's try is unsuccessful because it is no longer a try.</s>

Nevermind, misread the play.

Everything except the defender.

Try or pass... doesnt matter.

Play 1 or 2 here?

I was referring to 2 but I mistakenly thought it was a try. So disregard my previous post.

Contradiction?
 

I'm also reading 4.41.4 Situation B

A1's three point try is short and below ring level when it hits the shoulder of B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through the basket.

The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are scored.

But if it was a pass that originated outside the 3 point line by A and it hit B in the shoulder and went through the basket, then it's 3 points according to 5.2.1 situation C.

I don't think 5.2.1C is intended for a thrown ball that had no chance of going in without Team B's deflection. I believe the intent of this caseplay is to show that B's touch will not nullify A's throw behind the three point line. I most certainly could be wrong though.

Negative
 

I believe the difference is, in one situation the defender touched the ball & in the other the ball (obviously short - try ended) touched the defender.

:eek:

Good luck explaining that one to a coach. I think you are correct about the distinction though.

You agree that a try that has clearly ended cannot be a three when it is certain that it is not successful, but you think a pass which never had a chance to go in in the first place is a 3 if deflected in?

That's how I'm reading 4.41.4 situation B and 5.2.1

I think I misread the play originally, too.

If the original "throw" has any chance of going in the basket (there's enough force to get the ball above 9 feet and the direction will take it within 10 feet of the basket), then count it as three.

If the original "throw" has no chance, then count it as two.

The rule change was put in place to allow for a "missed alley-oop" pass to count for three points.

Once we realize the distinction between who runs the court & who runs the team, explaining tough calls to coaches require no luck whatsoever...

Its never a debate, he either buys it or he doesnt. I never hesitate to invite non-believers to the rules class in October! But I never hold class on the court Nov-Mar. IJS

So to answer the OP
3 and 2?

Depends what kind of pass we have. A bounce pass into the post that is deflected and goes in is 2pts. A chest pass into the post that never was above the rim until after the deflection is a 2. An "alley-oop" type pass that was thrown toward the basket but was deflected might well be scored 3. A player on the wing who is obviously throwing an overhead skip pass to the other side of the court that is deflected and goes in IMO is still a 2. Rule 4-41-2 does bring the element of an officials judgement regarding a try for goal.
What if the passer/thrower is fouled after the deflection and the ball goes in/misses? Do you count it and give 1 FT? Or 3 FTs if the deflection doesn't go in? Judgment is required in these situations.

This is technically true since 4.41.4 says "the try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, ..."

But I think it's easier to explain from the angle of it being clear that the try was unsuccessful. (short of the rim, CLEARLY wide of the goal).

It's really just wordsmithing but I think starting down the path of saying the defensive touch made it go opens you up for more questions than just explaining the try had ended.

Depends... was it a lob over the top or a short/bounce pass into the post.

Okay now we're all back on the same page.

Just the way the original post was written I was picturing a short pass into the near post that got deflected and everyone was saying 3 and 3...that threw me off.

In play 2. Pass was just a simple chest pass that did not hit the floor. Pass was thrown about 6 foot high and both offense and defense had their backs to the basket on the block. Ball hit one of the two players and deflected into the basket. Both players were inside the 3 point line.

Hold up, wait a minute... this isnt what you said originally.

Here's the text of 5-2-1:

A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown.
__________________


5-2-1 clearly states "a teammate"... why does it not address the defense? If the ball is deflected in the basket by a defender on a post feed is it covered by the rule? Think of the defender who is covering the passer with the ball. The passer is behind the line. The defender is inside the arc. The ball is passed from the offensive player on a post feed and the defender closest to the ball deflects it into the basket.

Correct, the original post was made before I did not know we had to determine exactly who deflected the ball. Now I realize this is an important part of the play so what if you can not determine exactly who the ball touched last before being deflected into the basket.

#1 is 3 points.

#2 is 2 points.

And here is why...

The thrown-ball rule was instituted so we do not have to determine if it was a try or a pass.

4.41.4B tells us that when the opportunity for it to go in has clearly ended and a deflection puts it in, it will be 2 points. Since we are not to judge whether it was a try or a pass, substitute pass in for try in 4.41.4B....and you get 2 points.

5.2.1C is talking about a ball that is a pass/try towards the basket where the defender gets their fingertips on the ball like a blocked shot....but it still goes in. It is not relevant to a ball thrown nowhere near the basket. The clues to that are buried in the specific words chosen...

"The ball is legally touched by"
"The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket."

With the wording in 5.2.1C, it is clearly addressing a ball that goes to the basket as a result of the original throw and that a mere "touching" by the defense doesn't change its status. Touching is not bouncing/deflecting the ball in a new direction.

Are you an official?

+1
;)

This is how I was originally understanding it as well. Damn forum got me second guessing :D

But it's a great review, cause I hadn't thought about this situation in a long time.

Perhaps some of the confusion stems from the fact that the rule book uses the words "throw" and "thrown" when talking about a try (shot), and some of us are thinking of "throw" as being a pass...