(NCAA rules)

A1 passes to A2, but ball is deflected into A's backcourt by B1.

A3 runs into the backcourt, and touches the ball but does not secure control. A few seconds later, he secures control

So when does the 10-count start?

1) As soon as the ball goes into the backcourt
2) When A3 touches the ball
3) When A3 gains control

When A# gains possession. You can't have a ten second count until the ball is in team possession which doesn't occur until the player has the ball.

Women does not have this rule, but the Men do.
 

Number #3. Rule 9-9-1 say: "<b>(Men's)</b> A player (and his team) shall not be in continuous control of the ball that is in the backcourt for 10 consecutive seconds.

So just touching the ball cannot be considered control.

Peace

Firedoc and JRut are certainly correct that the ten-second count can only start after team control is established. However, from the original question it seems that Team A does have team control since A1 is passing to A2. The deflection by team B does not end this team control, so, on this play, the ten-second count should start as soon as the ball gains backcourt status.
Now if the pass from A1 to A2 is a throw-in pass, then you wait until a player inbounds establishes control before there could be a ten-second count. But the original question doesn't say if this pass is a throw-in pass.

I should also point out that this is different from when the shot clock starts under NCAA rules or for those that use it in NFHS. After a made basket, the shot clock starts when the subsequent throw-in is legally touched or touches a player in bounds.
So if the throw-in pass is deflected and not immediately controlled by a player, we could have a situation where the shot clock could be running for say 3 seconds and the ten-second count hasn't even started. This means that in a men's game the shot clock could show 23 seconds remaining and a team could still be trying to cross the division line without committing a 10-second violation.

Bingo. Give that man a gold star. Start the 10-seconds as soon as the ball gains backcourt status. I don't like it, but that's the rule.

This, of course, is different in the NBA, since the touching by the defense does end A's team control. (Plus, they only get 8 seconds).

DOc and Rut missed it.
 

NVRef is correct. The count starts as soon as the ball enters the BC. Team control never ended for team A.

Same for NFHS and NCAA.

Re: DOc and Rut missed it.
 

I was answering this question as a throw-in. It seemed to me that the question might have been to see if the shot clock had anything to do with the start of a 10 second count. Maybe I just read too much into the question.

Peace

Fed is 9-8. NCAA is 9-9. Hope that is helpful.

4-12-3
4-13-2
9-8

Re: Here is my question.
 

1 (Team Control definition) + 1 (Backcourt Violation description) = 2.

The rules makes expect you to be able to do the math.

The scenario was not a throw-in, but a pass between two teammates that was deflected by the defense.

I agree, no loss of team control, count starts when ball enters backcourt...a rule I do not like. If we permit Team A to go into the backcourt to retrieve a ball deflected by the defense, it seems logical (at least to me) to wait until they secure control before starting a 10-count. But that's just me.

I had a play like this earlier in the year, and the Team A coach had a stroke because I started the 10-count "too early".

Re: Excuse me Mr. Jenkins
 

Hey Homey, Bob's one of the good guys, ok? You're still fairly new here, so you may not have acquired a taste for the ribbing that everybody gives and gets on this discussion board. Bob's just telling you that you don't need a case on this play. The definition of team control, along with the wording of the rule in Rule 9 seems pretty clear.

If you think you're getting roughed up, do a search on the word "Sox" and take a look at how they like to dish it out on me. As I said before, keep posting; you'll get the feel of things around here.


Oooo!! Oooooo! My turn! My turn for a smart-@$$ answer!! Ahem. . . Well, I hope it doesn't take them a full minute before they start their 10-second count! ;)

Glad to have you on board, Homey.

Chuck

canuckrefguy,

I have seen this debated before many times. I tend to agree with you because there seems to be no casebook ruling that gives information either way. I have also been yelled at for starting my count "too early" because I was thinking all the pieces fit in the rules. But when they do not fit, you look up in the casebook and put the pieces back together. Well there is nothing (and there should be) about what to do. So all you are left with is two rules to make a ruling. Not only that, you have to look in two different parts of the NF and NCAA rulebooks to come to that conclusion. If that is what they want, then they should at least put a case play in the books to tie in the loose ends. Especially when this is not that uncommon of a play.

This is just my two cents on the issue. ;)

Peace

Re: Re: Excuse me Mr. Jenkins
 

First of all Chuck, you get all that ribbing because you deserve it. Seondly, it's not "Homey", it's "Hommie", which to me sounds vaguely French. So maybe he deserves it too.

:D (BTW, this icon is the universal sign for "I'm joking". It's a joke. Meant to be funny. Not to be taken seriously. Like 90% of what I post here. I think only Padgett's signal to noise ratio is worse than mine, but his name is kinda French too, aint it?)

Re: Re: Re: Excuse me Mr. Jenkins
 

See what I mean, Hommie?

Yeah, but who ever heard of a Homboy? I thought he was going for the homeboy image. Could be wrong.

If you keep calling me Mr. Elias, I'm gonna start calling you Mr. Hommie. :) "Chuck" is fine.

Then Hommie you shall be.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time the FED has dropped the ball. But I honestly think that if you read the applicable rules, it's not really debatable. You're not allowed to have team control in the backcourt for more than 10 seconds. Since the team already has control when the ball goes into the backcourt, that's when their time starts. I suppose somebody could disagree, but only until they read the rule carefully. In my opinion. :)


I agree. There's no way that the ball would sit in the backcourt untouched for 10 seconds. However, the ball could be deflected into the backcourt and the defense could apply pressure in the backcourt. If that happened, you would need the 10-second count, and you'd need to start it at the right time.

I think you got it from Bob ;)

If you're set on seeing a case from the FED, then I guess you need to keep looking. But if you just want to know the right answer, then you've already got it. As I said, if you read the applicable rules, it's pretty clear; so maybe the FED thinks that no further clarification is necessary. While I think the ruling is clear, a play in the casebook couldn't hurt.

A case play does not exist for every single situation.
 

Hommie, NF 9-8 is very clear. "A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of a ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds."

Does team control exist? Yes.

Is the ball in the BC of the team with control? Yes.

We have team control of the ball while the ball is in the BC, so, yes, there is a 10 second count. PLAYER CONTROL IS NOT REQUIRED.

Let's say that A1 is in the BC and passes to A2 in the BC. But the ball is deflected by B1 and is loose. Does the count continue? Of course it does. Why? Because we have team control of the ball while the ball is in the BC.

Also, you may look at this year's NFHS Part II exam. I don't have my copy at the moment but a question appears around #85. Perhaps someone who has the exam handy can post the actual statement but it goes something like this.

It is a violation if A1 passes the ball to A2 while in the FC, the pass is deflected by B1, goes into the BC and is left untouched in the BC for 10 seconds.

The answer to the question is TRUE. That's as official as it gets! ;)

I also agree that there is no ambiguity here. The rule is team control, just as in the backcourt violation rule. If you aren't resetting the shot clock, then A still has team control. If A has team control and ball is BC, you need to be counting.

And Chuck, it is not clear to me why you don't like this. I look at it as A screwed up allowing B to touch the ball. The count has started, get the ball and get it front-court. And if there is a shot clock, you really need to hurry cause it is still ticking, too.

Other officials say they don't like another rule, specifically: A has ball frontcourt, B taps, A touches but does not control in FC and ball goes BC, A retrieves, violation. They say it is unfair to A. I say A has team control, they should pass better. Not my fault they let B tap the ball.

If I remember correctly on last year's part B exam there was a question about A having the B ball in front court and then the ball going to backcourt after 10 seconds is this a violation? (assumed A or B did not go afer the ball)
The answer was T- violation-

I will look the question up when I get home LATE tonight

Stew
CVBOA

Stew-
I just said that.
Look above.
BBR

Stew-
I just said that.
Look above.
BBR [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes you did 32 min before my post- I ws pulled away from my desk for 45 min- I was in the middle of writing my response- when I return I sent my response- I guess (great) minds think alike- except yours was thourough and quoted the rule and question on the test mine did not
stew

Yes you did 32 min before my post- I ws pulled away from my desk for 45 min- I was in the middle of writing my response- when I return I sent my response- I guess (great) minds think alike- except yours was thourough and quoted the rule and question on the test mine did not
stew [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, if you have the exam, feel free to quote the exact statement. I can't locate mine at the moment.

Re: Excuse me Mr. Jenkins
 

No, but it helps.

This is as close to a casebook play as you will get on this situation:

NFHS 2002-03 Basketball Rules Examination -- Part II
#99 It is a violation if, in A's frontcourt, A1 passes to A2 but A2 fumbles the ball into A's backcourt where it remains untouched for 10 seconds.
The answer key says: True, and 9-8 is the given rules citation.

This tells us that not only is this a 10-second violation, but that you need to start the count right away. That last part can be deduced from it being a violation in 10 seconds, not 12 or 15.