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Dunk in pregame
There was a bjv game in our area with a interesting warmup. As the home team was warming up, a varsity member got in the line and dunked. The officials T'd the home team, gave them a team foul, and coach had to sit. What do you think?
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Is so, what if he'd joined the other teams lineup and dunked? Or what if he had been a random fan who ran on? And why wouldn't you make them addd him to the book (which depending on the time remaining, might get them another T). |
Good questions, and the answer would like depend on the situation. I'm sure the team would object the moment an unfamiliar face got in line.
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I'm not sure a T applies here.
It's been explained to us that, at halftime, if the varsity comes on the floor and shoots around while the actual teams are in the locker room, that's fine, until the actual players of that game take the floor again. Additionally, if someone dunks who's not playing in that game, we have no jurisdiction to give a technical foul. I have to think this also applies in pre-game. Besides, this infraction (pre-game dunking) is a player technical foul, not a team technical. Granted, this player shouldn't have been on the floor in the first place, but if the player is not in the book, there's no foul. |
I'm not married to the idea of a T, but I'm not going to fault an official who calls one here. Besides, as 26yg notes, there will be lessons learned this way.
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But what's the rule basis here? 2-8-1?
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Unless it was a player for either team I am not assessing a T here.
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Wait, what if it's a JV girls' game?
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A technical foul is definitely WRONG in this situation.
The rule is clear and states that the act must be committed by "bench personnel, including the head coach." (10-4) Simply have the person removed from the court and continue with the pre-game warm-up. |
A T is a T is a T
T him. Presumably the rule in effect says no dunking in pregame. He's part of the pregame for one team if he's on the court and in uniform, per 4-24-4. He's in uniform, He dunks. We whack. The coach is responsible for controlling his own warm-up.
I find the excuse that he's not bench personnel because he is not in the book unavailing. That would mean a team could send its team out to warm up, list nobody in the book, dunk away, intimidate the opposition, then retreat immune from anything beyond a single administrative T |
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Anyone being permitted by the team to participate in the warm-up is clearly affiliated with the team. Considering the practice of having players play at both levels is not exactly rare, I'm not sure how you get around the T by rule as he very well could be a JV player as well. |
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Again, this is a player technical foul, not a team one. You must have someone to whack, and if he's not involved in that game, the only reason for a team T would be to stretch 2-8-1. |
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Okay then. It's halftime of the JV game. Both JV teams go into their respective locker rooms, and the varisty teams take the court to shoot around. One dunks. Whack? |
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The coach being seatbelted is a high school thing and is done to discourage unsporting behavior. If a coach knows he will have to sit the rest of a game, he is more likely to keep his team and himself under control. It obviously is not always a deterrent, but it helps. |
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Last month, we received instruction that, when a team is warming up, ONLY team members can be on the floor. If they're going to the locker room, it's a different story, but once they come out, it's only about the team. Everyone else is to be sent off. So, if they're not part of the team, then I can't extend bench personnel to them. It's either 2-8-1 or nothing (most likely the latter), as far as I can see. |
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In practice, if it's obvious that he's a non-dressed varsity player and the coach is telling me he shouldn't have been out there, I'm not going to assess the T. |
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Heh, just reading the new OHSAA Rebounder's Report which is the newsletter put out by the Ohio Assistant Commissioner for Basketball Jerry Snodgrass.
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The simple fact that we would speak with the coaches about that dunker -- and clearing up who he is -- should be incentive enough to keep him off the court. Nobody wants that conversation. |
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Good rules discussion on both sides of the issue...
Personally...I would like to see dunking allowed, while we watch warm-ups. It might make the "worst 15 minutes of basketball" a little easier to take.;) BUT...since we have been told "no dunking allowed" in warm-ups...we do not allow it. (Presumably, in this part of Rome, the dunking "shows up" the officials) shrug: Sooooo...whack the kid, that's in uniform dunking, and be done with it. ...IMHO. |
If the kid is a member of the varsity team and is out there warming up then he is affiliated with the jv team and is therefore bench personnel. If he is in the team warmups the same as the other players, then he is a team member. So if he dunks, call the T.
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That is not supported by the NFHS rules book. If the state office makes a specific interpretation, then that is what should be done, but that isn't what the NFHS rule is. The NFHS rules are written for VARSITY contests (It says so right in the front of the book.) and apply only for single games. There is no carry-over from game to game or one level of play to another under NFHS rules. That is left to the states and local leagues. |
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No carry over, however, bolsters the idea that I can consider any player participating with thr team in their drills to be a player. NFHS has determined pregame dunks are unsporting, why let them dance around the rule this way? |
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As far as something carrying over, I have no idea what you are talking about. Once that kid got in the warmup line dressed like everyone else, he became a member of that team. If he dunks, T him. |
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I guess those who wouldn't assess the T would allow the entire varsity team to take the floor and dunk to their hearts content without penalty. i mean, if it's not illegal, then there's no rule available to stop them from doing it. As for players not being allowed to dunk in pre-game, it's a safety issue. in warm-ups, you're going to have kids trying to dunk who can't dunk. A kid who can barely touch the rim is more subject to falling and getting injured than a 6'8" player. Also, there's the risk of damaging equipment. It's legal during the game, so if some damage occurs, it's something that happens. But do school systems really want to spend $$ replacing a backboard because some knucklehead was showing off in warmups? I don't think so. As for the coach sitting, he's responsible for bench personnel. I don't see why that's difficult to understand. |
If a kid sitting on the bench pops off, we don't allow the coach to get out of it by saying he's a varsity player not playing in this game. Why should warm up drills be any different?
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I would T a player who is warming up with the team and looks like he belongs to the team. I would not T a player who just comes on the court, dunks and leaves.
I would tell the coach to keep his varsity kids off the court. Warming up with the players and coming on the court just to dunk and leave are 2 different things IMO. The issue I would also see is since this is also a player tech we would have to add the player to the book which could have eligibility issues etc. |
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ok, here's one
around here there is a group of schools that has a competition for pizza slices. students pay a buck and get to shoot from half court, everyone who makes gets a slice, this takes place for nearly 8 minutes until teams return to floor suppose varsity players are involved but since anyone can participate you cant tell who is from which team and who are players instead of fans now suppose a clown decides to dunk how do you differentiate who is player, what team, if any and try to enforce the notion of if they are on the floor during halftime they are affiliated with a specific team |
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But to humor you, the answer is easy. We don't take the floor until the teams return. So we won't be on the floor during the halftime fan activity. |
It is not our job sort out who is on the team. By allowing him to participate in the activities, the team/coach has made that decision for us. Being on the floor warming up with the team, he is participating and will get a T.
Now the only question that remains is whether to add them to the book as a squad member or just penalize him as bench personnel. If the former, you might also have an administrative T for changing the book. :eek: (I suggest the latter) |
What if a team member's older brother, who is now in college, comes onto the court during the pre-game warm-ups and decides to show him how to dunk better? Let's say that he borrowed a team warm-up suit. He is not an assistant coach and not going to sit on the bench during the game.
PS What if a injured player's mom comes onto the court takes the ball and dunks it? :D |
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You're saying him sitting on the bench would make a difference? On the bench is an affiliation, but warming up with the team is not? |
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Just like anyone on the bench is subject to sportsmanship rules and is under the responsibility of the coach, anyone participating with warmups is also under the responsibility of the coach.
If that were not the case, someone actually on the team could dunk and the coach could then say the offending party was not on the team but a guest, on a different team, or even a stranger....and you'd be left with nothing you could do even if they were going to be a player. |
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However, if the JV team is engaged in pre-game warm ups and a varsity player joins them, I'd rule him as a member of that squad, and take care of business as needed. I am very wary of calling pre game technicals, however, and would only do so if it was obviously egregious. |
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I can't believe that people are actually saying that a VARSITY team member who is on the court during the JV warm-ups should be considered part of the JV team! :eek: Those who are writing that are actually stating that the kid is part of another team, yet still want to include him with the team currently contesting the game. That is absurd. If you know that he is on the Varsity team, then how can you consider him to be part of the JV squad? :confused: The kid is either on the Varsity team or the JV team. If your state allows him to play in both, then I can see this side of the argument. However, barring such a provision, the kid should be treated as a spectator and removed from the floor without penalty to the team participating in the game. |
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But what about the language? .....individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to...........etc. Sounds like a green light to T anybody who is doing something he shouldn't be doing. |
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I disagree. Per 10-3-3 dunking a dead ball is a PLAYER technical. Who are you gonna charge the foul too? |
What is the call if a player allow himself to be used as a step for this teammate to dunk? Yes, it's during the game. :D
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One, Or Two, Technical Fouls ???
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10-3-6-E: A player shall not: Climbing on or lifting a teammate to secure greater height. Now, who is charged with the technical foul, the climber, or the climbee, or both? |
Seems Like Overkill ...
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For the simple reason of this "double jeopardy" overkill, I'm not charging a technical foul for pregame dunking if a person, not listed as a team member on the team roster for that specific game, dunks the ball. Just my opinion. |
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Not In My Game ...
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Citations: Common sense. 2-3. Purpose and intent. No such shenanigans in my game. |
Go Directly To Jail ...
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Common Sense ...
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Coach: "33? He's not even on the varsity team. He's a junior varsity player. He doesn't even belong out there. His name won't be in the book". Me: "OK coach. No technical foul. Now will you please get him off the court?" Coach: "No problem Mr. BillyMac. And, by the way, some hot, single, Moms have told me that you look particularly handsome tonight, and they've asked me to get your phone number for them". Me; "Just tell all of them to wait outside the locker room after the game. I'll pick the hottest one to buy me dinner tonight. Any good steak restaurants around here?" Yep. That's the way it would go in my game. |
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Just Deserts ...
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I'm pleased that the only statement in my post that you found implausible was that I would believe that the coach wasn't lying. It's looks like you believed that the rest of my post was very plausible. Thanks. Appreciate it. |
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"Coach, we have a T on 33 for dunking during the warmups." "What? 33 isn't even on my team. He's a Varsity player." "Sounds like you have some things to deal with Coach. We will be starting the game with 2 free throws." |
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So, this same player, in pregame while warming up with his JV buddies, sees you walk on the court. He's seen you before, so responds by saying to his teammates, "We're Fu@ked, this guy hates us."
Your call? |
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So the other Coach says: "Hey ref, why are we not starting this half with two free throws for that kid dunking.' "Well Coach, you see, it seems that that kid is a Varsity player and since this is only the JV game I can't T him." Really???:eek: |
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He's NOT IN THE GAME.
Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route. |
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In My Humble Opinion ...
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In my opinion, standing in the layup line does not make you a team member. I'm sure that there are some other valid reasons for charging the technical, or technicals (scorebook), but simply standing in the layup line and dunking is certainly not one of them. |
It Would Have To Be Two Technical Fouls If After The Ten Minute Mark ...
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If it is really is that simple there Yoda can you back it up with a rule and case reference? |
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Nice... Go read 4-34 and the definitions there. |
Let us get back on point.
I am going to apologize in advance for the length of this post but hope that everybody will give it a thoughtful read through. I should remind our newer members of the Forum that this thread is not the first time that this situation has been discussed; I am pretty sure that within the last ten (10) years it has been discussed here.
We can be presented with two different scenarios: 1) Pregame dunk in the JV game by a Varsity player, and 2) pregame dunk in the VAR game by a jr. varsity player. Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety: "Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this…. It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules." Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdiciton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age. Let us discuss Situation (1) first, because it is the most likely scenario: We all know that many times, especially in states like Ohio, that allow players to play in both the JV and VAR games (and even the FR game for FR, JV, VAR trippleheaders), that not all of the players warming up will be wearing identical uniforms and warmups; as long as everybody for a team is wearing the same color jersery is good enough to meet the uniform rules requirments (assuming that the individual jersey are otherwise legal). Therefore, it is logicial to assume that all of the players who are warming up are members of the JV team. It is not part of the duties of the Game Officials to poll the players as to who is a JV player and who is VAR player who is just running through the warmup line. It is the responsiblity of the HC to manage his team and to know who is warming up and who is not warming up. Without going into the history of the Dead Ball dunking rule, the rule was adopted as a safety rule. For those who want to research this further please do (please look up Daryl Dawkins, :D), but in the meantime take my word for it. Therefore, it would be well within the rules to penalize a VAR player for being in JV warmup line for dunking the ball. NFHS R10-S4 (Bench Technical)-A1i states: "Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball." The penalty for the situation being discussed is a DTF charged to the Dunker and an ITF chargerd to the Dunker's HC. My position has always been the same as Camron's and that this is apply NFHS R10-S4-Ai. The real question to be asked in our situation is this: If the Dunk occured after the Ten Minute Mark, should an Administrative TF charged to the Team for adding a Player to the Roster. One part of me (the evil trouble maker part, :mad:) says yes, while the other part of me (the one that has mellowed over the years, :cool:) says treat the Dunker as a substitute in uniform that the HC has told to be ready to play in case of an emergency and if that emergency happens he will then add his name to the roster and take the TF. I take the latter position. I have said my piece. Have at it boys and girls. MTD, Sr. |
Don't Confuse The Rookies ...
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How can you justify charging a team technical for a pregame dunk, it's a player technical? In my opinion, you're either going to have to charge two technicals (dunk, adding name to book), or none, and I would vote for none, and would simply, "treat the dunker like a fan, which he is, and have game management deal with his removal". |
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Camron: Billy is correct. You can not charge the TF as an Adminstrative TF; see the Penalty for NFHS R1-S4-A1i and my post above. MTD, Sr. |
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. To The Rescue ...
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The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not: ART. 1 Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as: i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball. PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged indirectly to the head coach. Well, now I know that if the head coach comes out and does a pregame dunk I can charge him with a direct technical foul. You learn something every day. Thanks. So now we're back to the same question, is any pregame dunker: a person, in uniform, from another level team from that school; a hot, single Mom; a mascot; a fan, from that school, or another school, etc., considered bench personnel? Are they a team member just because they're in the layup line? I say, "No", to both, but that's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before, many, many, times before. |
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Which begs the question, if the Assistant Coach dunks a Dead Ball in the pregame warmup do we WHACK him? :D MTD, Sr. |
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Who's Who ...
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Good Point ...
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It's Elementary, My Dear Watson ...
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http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...9a1bece393e137 Once again, the plot thickens. |
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Since 2-8-1 allows for Ts for disruptive fans -- with discretion, of course -- this could be your rule citation for a technical foul. Again, it's not how I would handled it (unless my association directed me otherwise), but it's a rule citation nonetheless. |
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I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated. Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked? |
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Coach: "I didn't even know he was out there!" Official: "It is your business to know who is out there." |
Maybe the horse isn't suficiently dead after all, but I never saw an answer to this question:
In the pregame warmups for the varsity game, U2 approaches A1 to inform him that he needs to remove his Live Strong bracelet. A2, standing next to him, says, "Why don't you worry about the game, D1ckhead?" As you go to the table to report the T, coach tells you that A2 is a JV player who is allowed to warm up with the varsity but won't be on the bench or roster. You're not going through with this T? |
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What it does say is: ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior. So...since this OP was during an intermission, and the kid was dressed as a player, and he dunked - which is unsporting behavior - he is penalized as bench personnel. It's right there...all you have to do is read it. |
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