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Jmcmu66 Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:27pm

Dunk in pregame
 
There was a bjv game in our area with a interesting warmup. As the home team was warming up, a varsity member got in the line and dunked. The officials T'd the home team, gave them a team foul, and coach had to sit. What do you think?

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmcmu66 (Post 814660)
There was a bjv game in our area with a interesting warmup. As the home team was warming up, a varsity member got in the line and dunked. The officials T'd the home team, gave them a team foul, and coach had to sit. What do you think?

Personally, if the varsity kid joined the JV layup line, I've got no problem with the T. Coach should keep him off the floor. If coach is in the locker room with the team, different scenario, IMO.

26 Year Gap Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmcmu66 (Post 814660)
There was a bjv game in our area with a interesting warmup. As the home team was warming up, a varsity member got in the line and dunked. The officials T'd the home team, gave them a team foul, and coach had to sit. What do you think?

I think that player had extra running in his next practice.

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap (Post 814664)
I think that player had extra running in his next practice.

My coach would have had us all running extra.

youngump Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 814663)
Personally, if the varsity kid joined the JV layup line, I've got no problem with the T. Coach should keep him off the floor. If coach is in the locker room with the team, different scenario, IMO.

I'm guessing you wouldn't T him up just for coming on the floor and warming up so you're invoking the rule against dunking?
Is so, what if he'd joined the other teams lineup and dunked? Or what if he had been a random fan who ran on? And why wouldn't you make them addd him to the book (which depending on the time remaining, might get them another T).

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:56pm

Good questions, and the answer would like depend on the situation. I'm sure the team would object the moment an unfamiliar face got in line.

bainsey Wed Jan 18, 2012 09:58pm

I'm not sure a T applies here.

It's been explained to us that, at halftime, if the varsity comes on the floor and shoots around while the actual teams are in the locker room, that's fine, until the actual players of that game take the floor again. Additionally, if someone dunks who's not playing in that game, we have no jurisdiction to give a technical foul.

I have to think this also applies in pre-game. Besides, this infraction (pre-game dunking) is a player technical foul, not a team technical. Granted, this player shouldn't have been on the floor in the first place, but if the player is not in the book, there's no foul.

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:06pm

I'm not married to the idea of a T, but I'm not going to fault an official who calls one here. Besides, as 26yg notes, there will be lessons learned this way.

bainsey Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:12pm

But what's the rule basis here? 2-8-1?

Adam Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814677)
But what's the rule basis here? 2-8-1?

That gives you the authority to call the T without adding to the book. I'd likely not assess the indirect in this case, and I'd have to feel certain that it was.a player from the same school, but there's a good chance I'd go there if it played out as I envision.

deecee Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:54pm

Unless it was a player for either team I am not assessing a T here.

bainsey Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:15pm

Wait, what if it's a JV girls' game?

deecee Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814690)
Wait, what if it's a JV girls' game?

Then its a forfeit.

Nevadaref Thu Jan 19, 2012 05:18am

A technical foul is definitely WRONG in this situation.
The rule is clear and states that the act must be committed by "bench personnel, including the head coach." (10-4)

Simply have the person removed from the court and continue with the pre-game warm-up.

amusedofficial Thu Jan 19, 2012 07:01am

A T is a T is a T
 
T him. Presumably the rule in effect says no dunking in pregame. He's part of the pregame for one team if he's on the court and in uniform, per 4-24-4. He's in uniform, He dunks. We whack. The coach is responsible for controlling his own warm-up.

I find the excuse that he's not bench personnel because he is not in the book unavailing. That would mean a team could send its team out to warm up, list nobody in the book, dunk away, intimidate the opposition, then retreat immune from anything beyond a single administrative T

Eastshire Thu Jan 19, 2012 07:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 814740)
A technical foul is definitely WRONG in this situation.
The rule is clear and states that the act must be committed by "bench personnel, including the head coach." (10-4)

Simply have the person removed from the court and continue with the pre-game warm-up.

Except he is bench personnel. Bench personnel include "all individuals who are . . . affiliated with a team." 4-34-2

Anyone being permitted by the team to participate in the warm-up is clearly affiliated with the team.

Considering the practice of having players play at both levels is not exactly rare, I'm not sure how you get around the T by rule as he very well could be a JV player as well.

bainsey Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 814763)
Except he is bench personnel. Bench personnel include "all individuals who are . . . affiliated with a team." 4-34-2

Affiliated with the school? Certainly. With the TEAM? Not necessarily. A varsity player is on a different team than the JV team (swingers notwithstanding). If he's not in the book, and he's not an assistant coach, trainer, or manager, he's really just a fan.

Again, this is a player technical foul, not a team one. You must have someone to whack, and if he's not involved in that game, the only reason for a team T would be to stretch 2-8-1.

RadioBlue Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814690)
Wait, what if it's a JV girls' game?

I'd give the ball back to her and have her do it again!!! :D :D :p

Jay R Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jmcmu66 (Post 814660)
There was a bjv game in our area with a interesting warmup. As the home team was warming up, a varsity member got in the line and dunked. The officials T'd the home team, gave them a team foul, and coach had to sit. What do you think?

I think that this is a bad rule. First what's wrong with dunking in warm ups? They can dunk during the game and as long as they don't hang onto the rim, the risk of damaging the rim is low. Secondly, why should the coach have to sit after getting a technical? Never understood the logic there?

just another ref Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814818)
Affiliated with the school? Certainly. With the TEAM? Not necessarily. A varsity player is on a different team than the JV team (swingers notwithstanding). If he's not in the book, and he's not an assistant coach, trainer, or manager, he's really just a fan.

If he's out shooting layups with them, he's affiliated. What if he sits on the bench with them and tells you that you suck? You gonna allow that?

bainsey Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 814832)
What if he sits on the bench with them....

THEN he's bench personnel.

Okay then. It's halftime of the JV game. Both JV teams go into their respective locker rooms, and the varisty teams take the court to shoot around. One dunks. Whack?

zm1283 Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay R (Post 814830)
I think that this is a bad rule. First what's wrong with dunking in warm ups? They can dunk during the game and as long as they don't hang onto the rim, the risk of damaging the rim is low. Secondly, why should the coach have to sit after getting a technical? Never understood the logic there?

The rule against dunking in warmups is mainly because of potential injuries from what I've been told. That and possible damage to equipment, such as the baskets.

The coach being seatbelted is a high school thing and is done to discourage unsporting behavior. If a coach knows he will have to sit the rest of a game, he is more likely to keep his team and himself under control. It obviously is not always a deterrent, but it helps.

Eastshire Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814834)
THEN he's bench personnel.

Okay then. It's halftime of the JV game. Both JV teams go into their respective locker rooms, and the varisty teams take the court to shoot around. One dunks. Whack?

No, because he's not out their participating in a team activity. When a team allows an individual to join their warm up, he becomes affiliated with their team. If team is in the locker room, unless he had been sitting on the bench during the first half, I don't see an affiliation there.

bainsey Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 814848)
When a team allows an individual to join their warm up, he becomes affiliated with their team.

Okay, here's the crux, and it's probably a Roman thing.

Last month, we received instruction that, when a team is warming up, ONLY team members can be on the floor. If they're going to the locker room, it's a different story, but once they come out, it's only about the team. Everyone else is to be sent off.

So, if they're not part of the team, then I can't extend bench personnel to them. It's either 2-8-1 or nothing (most likely the latter), as far as I can see.

Eastshire Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814851)
Okay, here's the crux, and it's probably a Roman thing.

Last month, we received instruction that, when a team is warming up, ONLY team members can be on the floor. If they're going to the locker room, it's a different story, but once they come out, it's only about the team. Everyone else is to be sent off.

So, if they're not part of the team, then I can't extend bench personnel to them. It's either 2-8-1 or nothing (most likely the latter), as far as I can see.

This does indeed sound like a local thing. So you are not to permit coaches or managers to be on the floor during warm ups? I occasionally have a coach go onto the floor and not uncommonly have student managers assisting warm ups.

HawkeyeCubP Thu Jan 19, 2012 01:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814834)
THEN he's bench personnel.

Okay then. It's halftime of the JV game. Both JV teams go into their respective locker rooms, and the varisty teams take the court to shoot around. One dunks. Whack?

According to the state of Colorado's CHSAA, yes, unfortunately.:rolleyes:

bainsey Thu Jan 19, 2012 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 814856)
So you are not to permit coaches or managers to be on the floor during warm ups?

My mistake. I meant bench personnel, not team members.

Eastshire Thu Jan 19, 2012 01:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814863)
My mistake. I meant bench personnel, not team members.

Fair enough. I think this though does become a bit of a circular definition as anyone the team permits on the court during warm ups is therefore affiliated with the team and thus bench personnel.

In practice, if it's obvious that he's a non-dressed varsity player and the coach is telling me he shouldn't have been out there, I'm not going to assess the T.

Adam Thu Jan 19, 2012 01:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP (Post 814857)
According to the state of Colorado's CHSAA, yes, unfortunately.:rolleyes:

Really? From Tom?

Eastshire Thu Jan 19, 2012 01:59pm

Heh, just reading the new OHSAA Rebounder's Report which is the newsletter put out by the Ohio Assistant Commissioner for Basketball Jerry Snodgrass.

Quote:

Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules
Emphasis in the original.

bainsey Thu Jan 19, 2012 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 814887)
Fair enough. I think this though does become a bit of a circular definition as anyone the team permits on the court during warm ups is therefore affiliated with the team and thus bench personnel.

I define it a little tighter than that, to players, coaches, managers, and staff of THAT game. If you're playing in the next game, then you'll need to get off the court when the proper teams are practicing. You're not a part of that team.

The simple fact that we would speak with the coaches about that dunker -- and clearing up who he is -- should be incentive enough to keep him off the court. Nobody wants that conversation.

Eastshire Thu Jan 19, 2012 02:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 814894)
I define it a little tighter than that, to players, coaches, managers, and staff of THAT game. If you're playing in the next game, then you'll need to get off the court when the proper teams are practicing. You're not a part of that team.

The simple fact that we would speak with the coaches about that dunker -- and clearing up who he is -- should be incentive enough to keep him off the court. Nobody wants that conversation.

I sympathize with that, but see my last post for my state's interpretation: varsity players can warm up with the JV and are bench personnel.

RookieDude Thu Jan 19, 2012 02:03pm

Good rules discussion on both sides of the issue...

Personally...I would like to see dunking allowed, while we watch warm-ups. It might make the "worst 15 minutes of basketball" a little easier to take.;)

BUT...since we have been told "no dunking allowed" in warm-ups...we do not allow it. (Presumably, in this part of Rome, the dunking "shows up" the officials) shrug:

Sooooo...whack the kid, that's in uniform dunking, and be done with it.

...IMHO.

rockyroad Thu Jan 19, 2012 02:04pm

If the kid is a member of the varsity team and is out there warming up then he is affiliated with the jv team and is therefore bench personnel. If he is in the team warmups the same as the other players, then he is a team member. So if he dunks, call the T.

mbyron Thu Jan 19, 2012 02:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 814898)
if the kid is a member of the varsity team and is out there warming up then he is affiliated with the jv team and is therefore bench personnel. If he is in the team warmups the same as the other players, then he is a team member. So if he dunks, call the t.

+1

Nevadaref Thu Jan 19, 2012 06:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 814898)
If the kid is a member of the varsity team and is out there warming up then he is affiliated with the jv team and is therefore bench personnel. If he is in the team warmups the same as the other players, then he is a team member. So if he dunks, call the T.

-1
That is not supported by the NFHS rules book.
If the state office makes a specific interpretation, then that is what should be done, but that isn't what the NFHS rule is.
The NFHS rules are written for VARSITY contests (It says so right in the front of the book.) and apply only for single games. There is no carry-over from game to game or one level of play to another under NFHS rules. That is left to the states and local leagues.

Adam Thu Jan 19, 2012 07:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 814996)
-1
That is not supported by the NFHS rules book.
If the state office makes a specific interpretation, then that is what should be done, but that isn't what the NFHS rule is.
The NFHS rules are written for VARSITY contests (It says so right in the front of the book.) and apply only for single games. There is no carry-over from game to game or one level of play to another under NFHS rules. That is left to the states and local leagues.

"Written for varsity contests" isn't relevant as far as I can see, unless you're suggesting subvarsity games should use a different rule set or something.

No carry over, however, bolsters the idea that I can consider any player participating with thr team in their drills to be a player.

NFHS has determined pregame dunks are unsporting, why let them dance around the rule this way?

rockyroad Thu Jan 19, 2012 08:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 814996)
-1
That is not supported by the NFHS rules book.
If the state office makes a specific interpretation, then that is what should be done, but that isn't what the NFHS rule is.
The NFHS rules are written for VARSITY contests (It says so right in the front of the book.) and apply only for single games. There is no carry-over from game to game or one level of play to another under NFHS rules. That is left to the states and local leagues.

It most certainly is...check the definitions of player, etc - I think it's 4-34.

As far as something carrying over, I have no idea what you are talking about. Once that kid got in the warmup line dressed like everyone else, he became a member of that team. If he dunks, T him.

BktBallRef Thu Jan 19, 2012 08:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 814893)
Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules

I like it and it's exactly the way I would handle it.

I guess those who wouldn't assess the T would allow the entire varsity team to take the floor and dunk to their hearts content without penalty. i mean, if it's not illegal, then there's no rule available to stop them from doing it.

As for players not being allowed to dunk in pre-game, it's a safety issue. in warm-ups, you're going to have kids trying to dunk who can't dunk. A kid who can barely touch the rim is more subject to falling and getting injured than a 6'8" player. Also, there's the risk of damaging equipment. It's legal during the game, so if some damage occurs, it's something that happens. But do school systems really want to spend $$ replacing a backboard because some knucklehead was showing off in warmups? I don't think so.

As for the coach sitting, he's responsible for bench personnel. I don't see why that's difficult to understand.

Adam Thu Jan 19, 2012 08:16pm

If a kid sitting on the bench pops off, we don't allow the coach to get out of it by saying he's a varsity player not playing in this game. Why should warm up drills be any different?

deecee Thu Jan 19, 2012 08:19pm

I would T a player who is warming up with the team and looks like he belongs to the team. I would not T a player who just comes on the court, dunks and leaves.

I would tell the coach to keep his varsity kids off the court. Warming up with the players and coming on the court just to dunk and leave are 2 different things IMO.

The issue I would also see is since this is also a player tech we would have to add the player to the book which could have eligibility issues etc.

eyezen Thu Jan 19, 2012 08:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay R (Post 814830)
First what's wrong with dunking in warm ups?

I'll flip it around, what's right with dunking in warm ups?

7IronRef Thu Jan 19, 2012 08:49pm

ok, here's one

around here there is a group of schools that has a competition for pizza slices. students pay a buck and get to shoot from half court, everyone who makes gets a slice, this takes place for nearly 8 minutes until teams return to floor

suppose varsity players are involved but since anyone can participate you cant tell who is from which team and who are players instead of fans

now suppose a clown decides to dunk

how do you differentiate who is player, what team, if any and try to enforce the notion of if they are on the floor during halftime they are affiliated with a specific team

BktBallRef Thu Jan 19, 2012 08:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7IronRef (Post 815023)
ok, here's one

around here there is a group of schools that has a competition for pizza slices. students pay a buck and get to shoot from half court, everyone who makes gets a slice, this takes place for nearly 8 minutes until teams return to floor

suppose varsity players are involved but since anyone can participate you cant tell who is from which team and who are players instead of fans

now suppose a clown decides to dunk

how do you differentiate who is player, what team, if any and try to enforce the notion of if they are on the floor during halftime they are affiliated with a specific team

First, this is apples to oranges. This is not a team warming up prior to the game or at halftime.

But to humor you, the answer is easy. We don't take the floor until the teams return. So we won't be on the floor during the halftime fan activity.

Camron Rust Thu Jan 19, 2012 09:10pm

It is not our job sort out who is on the team. By allowing him to participate in the activities, the team/coach has made that decision for us. Being on the floor warming up with the team, he is participating and will get a T.

Now the only question that remains is whether to add them to the book as a squad member or just penalize him as bench personnel. If the former, you might also have an administrative T for changing the book. :eek: (I suggest the latter)

Nevadaref Fri Jan 20, 2012 01:57am

What if a team member's older brother, who is now in college, comes onto the court during the pre-game warm-ups and decides to show him how to dunk better? Let's say that he borrowed a team warm-up suit. He is not an assistant coach and not going to sit on the bench during the game.


PS
What if a injured player's mom comes onto the court takes the ball and dunks it? :D

just another ref Fri Jan 20, 2012 02:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 815069)
What if a team member's older brother, who is now in college, comes onto the court during the pre-game warm-ups and decides to show him how to dunk better? Let's say that he borrowed a team warm-up suit. He is not an assistant coach and not going to sit on the bench during the game.


Keep giving examples. No matter who it is, if he is dressed like the team, and warming up with the team, he is affiliated with the team, and is subject to being penalized for his actions.

You're saying him sitting on the bench would make a difference? On the bench is an affiliation, but warming up with the team is not?

Rich Fri Jan 20, 2012 03:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 815069)
What if a team member's older brother, who is now in college, comes onto the court during the pre-game warm-ups and decides to show him how to dunk better? Let's say that he borrowed a team warm-up suit. He is not an assistant coach and not going to sit on the bench during the game.


PS
What if a injured player's mom comes onto the court takes the ball and dunks it? :D

It's as easy as "Whack!"

Camron Rust Fri Jan 20, 2012 04:17am

Just like anyone on the bench is subject to sportsmanship rules and is under the responsibility of the coach, anyone participating with warmups is also under the responsibility of the coach.

If that were not the case, someone actually on the team could dunk and the coach could then say the offending party was not on the team but a guest, on a different team, or even a stranger....and you'd be left with nothing you could do even if they were going to be a player.

just another ref Fri Jan 20, 2012 04:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 815075)
Just like anyone on the bench is subject to sportsmanship rules and is under the responsibility of the coach, anyone participating with warmups is also under the responsibility of the coach.

If that were not the case, someone actually on the team could dunk and the coach <s>could</s> would then say the offending party was not on the team but a guest, on a different team, or even a stranger....and you'd be left with nothing you could do even if they were going to be a player.

fify :D

Eastshire Fri Jan 20, 2012 07:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 815069)
What if a team member's older brother, who is now in college, comes onto the court during the pre-game warm-ups and decides to show him how to dunk better? Let's say that he borrowed a team warm-up suit. He is not an assistant coach and not going to sit on the bench during the game.


PS
What if a injured player's mom comes onto the court takes the ball and dunks it? :D

By not chasing him off the court, the team is permitting him to join their warm-up which makes him affiliated with the team which is the very definition of bench personnel. There is no actual requirement of sitting on the bench during the game.

bainsey Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 815094)
There is no actual requirement of sitting on the bench during the game.

That's a real slippery slope if you want to use that as a basis for argument.

Eastshire Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815148)
That's a real slippery slope if you want to use that as a basis for argument.

Don't tell me that. I didn't write the definition.

Adam Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815148)
That's a real slippery slope if you want to use that as a basis for argument.

The rules are full of slippery slopes. The key is not slipping.

refiator Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7IronRef (Post 815023)
ok, here's one

around here there is a group of schools that has a competition for pizza slices. students pay a buck and get to shoot from half court, everyone who makes gets a slice, this takes place for nearly 8 minutes until teams return to floor

suppose varsity players are involved but since anyone can participate you cant tell who is from which team and who are players instead of fans

now suppose a clown decides to dunk

how do you differentiate who is player, what team, if any and try to enforce the notion of if they are on the floor during halftime they are affiliated with a specific team

This is a good discussion. I'd rule here that the halftime "exhibition" is not a part of the warm-ups, so no penalty.
However, if the JV team is engaged in pre-game warm ups and a varsity player joins them, I'd rule him as a member of that squad, and take care of business as needed.
I am very wary of calling pre game technicals, however, and would only do so if it was obviously egregious.

Nevadaref Sat Jan 21, 2012 03:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 815071)
Keep giving examples. No matter who it is, if he is dressed like the team, and warming up with the team, he is affiliated with the team, and is subject to being penalized for his actions.

You're saying him sitting on the bench would make a difference? On the bench is an affiliation, but warming up with the team is not?

Since only team members are listed in the scorebook, I put the part about will not be sitting on the bench to make it clear that he is not an asst coach, a manager, a stat person, a trainer, etc. with the team.

I can't believe that people are actually saying that a VARSITY team member who is on the court during the JV warm-ups should be considered part of the JV team! :eek: Those who are writing that are actually stating that the kid is part of another team, yet still want to include him with the team currently contesting the game. That is absurd. If you know that he is on the Varsity team, then how can you consider him to be part of the JV squad? :confused:

The kid is either on the Varsity team or the JV team. If your state allows him to play in both, then I can see this side of the argument. However, barring such a provision, the kid should be treated as a spectator and removed from the floor without penalty to the team participating in the game.

just another ref Sat Jan 21, 2012 04:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 815369)

The kid is either on the Varsity team or the JV team. If your state allows him to play in both, then I can see this side of the argument. However, barring such a provision, the kid should be treated as a spectator and removed from the floor without penalty to the team participating in the game.

My state does allow him to play in both.:)

But what about the language? .....individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to...........etc.

Sounds like a green light to T anybody who is doing something he shouldn't be doing.

constable Sat Jan 21, 2012 07:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 814898)
If the kid is a member of the varsity team and is out there warming up then he is affiliated with the jv team and is therefore bench personnel. If he is in the team warmups the same as the other players, then he is a team member. So if he dunks, call the T.


I disagree.

Per 10-3-3 dunking a dead ball is a PLAYER technical. Who are you gonna charge the foul too?

JugglingReferee Sat Jan 21, 2012 08:13am

What is the call if a player allow himself to be used as a step for this teammate to dunk? Yes, it's during the game. :D

BillyMac Sat Jan 21, 2012 08:23am

One, Or Two, Technical Fouls ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 815395)
What is the call if a player allow himself to be used as a step for this teammate to dunk? Yes, it's during the game. :D

Just let me whip out my old rule book (I watched Blazing Saddles on AMC last week).

10-3-6-E: A player shall not: Climbing on or lifting a teammate to secure greater height.

Now, who is charged with the technical foul, the climber, or the climbee, or both?

BillyMac Sat Jan 21, 2012 08:29am

Seems Like Overkill ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by constable (Post 815384)
I disagree. Per 10-3-3 dunking a dead ball is a PLAYER technical. Who are you gonna charge the foul too?

Charge the technical foul and then, if it's after the ten minute limit, charge a second technical foul for adding his name to the team roster? Man, that will get the game off to a good start.

For the simple reason of this "double jeopardy" overkill, I'm not charging a technical foul for pregame dunking if a person, not listed as a team member on the team roster for that specific game, dunks the ball. Just my opinion.

youngump Sat Jan 21, 2012 02:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815398)
Charge the technical foul and then, if it's after the ten minute limit, charge a second technical foul for adding his name to the team roster? Man, that will get the game off to a good start.

For the simple reason of this "double jeopardy" overkill, I'm not charging a technical foul for pregame dunking if a person, not listed as a player on the team roster for that specific game, dunks the ball. Just my opinion.

I agree with your approach. But it brings to mind a slightly different OP. During warmups, a uniformed person dunks the ball. When you go to T him up, you realize that the coach did not write his number on the roster. The coach claims a) he wasn't going to let him play due to grades but he was going to let him warm up b) he is a team player, but since he forgot to list him if he just doesn't play him can he avoid two technical foul c) he is not a team player and he doesn't know how he got a uniform.

BillyMac Sat Jan 21, 2012 02:44pm

Not In My Game ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 815451)
The coach did not write his number on the roster. The coach claims a) he wasn't going to let him play due to grades but he was going to let him warm up b) he is a team player, but since he forgot to list him if he just doesn't play him can he avoid two technical foul.

If person can't warm up wearing jewelry, then I'm not going to let a person, who is not listed on the roster, warm up either. If he wants to add him to the book, fine, two technicals, one for dunking, and one for the book change. If he doesn't want to add him to the book, that's fine too, but he's not going to be warming up with the team members who are actually on the roster.

Citations: Common sense. 2-3. Purpose and intent. No such shenanigans in my game.

BillyMac Sat Jan 21, 2012 02:47pm

Go Directly To Jail ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump (Post 815451)
He is not a team player and he doesn't know how he got a uniform.

Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go directly to the site director. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

Camron Rust Sat Jan 21, 2012 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815455)
If person can't warm up wearing jewelry, then I'm not going to let a person, who is not listed on the roster, warm up either. If he wants to add him to the book, fine, two technicals, one for dunking, and one for the book change. If he doesn't want to add him to the book, that's fine too, but he's not going to be warming up with the team members who are actually on the roster.

Citations: Common sense. 2-3. Purpose and intent. No such shenanigans in my game.

Until the 10 minute mark, how do you know who is on the roster? Or do you not let a team warm up until they've submitted their rosters?

BillyMac Sat Jan 21, 2012 04:26pm

Common Sense ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 815460)
Until the 10 minute mark, how do you know who is on the roster? Or do you not let a team warm up until they've submitted their rosters?

Me: "Coach. I've got a technical foul charged to White 33 for dunking during the pregame warmup period so we'll be starting the game with some free throws for Red".

Coach: "33? He's not even on the varsity team. He's a junior varsity player. He doesn't even belong out there. His name won't be in the book".

Me: "OK coach. No technical foul. Now will you please get him off the court?"

Coach: "No problem Mr. BillyMac. And, by the way, some hot, single, Moms have told me that you look particularly handsome tonight, and they've asked me to get your phone number for them".

Me; "Just tell all of them to wait outside the locker room after the game. I'll pick the hottest one to buy me dinner tonight. Any good steak restaurants around here?"

Yep. That's the way it would go in my game.

Camron Rust Sat Jan 21, 2012 04:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815462)
Me: "Coach. I've got a technical foul charged to White 33 for dunking during the pregame warmup period so we'll be starting the game with some free throws for Red".

Coach: "33? He's not even on the varsity team. He's a junior varsity player. He doesn't even belong out there. His name won't be in the book".

Me: "OK coach. No technical foul. Now will you please get him off the court?"

Coach: "No problem Mr. Billy Mac. And, by the way, some hot, single, Moms have told me that you look particularly handsome tonight, and they've asked me to get your phone number for them".

Me; "Just tell all of them to wait outside the locker to after the game. I'll pick the hottest one to buy me dinner tonight".

Yep. That's the way it would go in my game.

Do you normally believe the coach when he says his player didn't do it?

BillyMac Sat Jan 21, 2012 06:59pm

Just Deserts ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 815464)
Do you normally believe the coach when he says his player didn't do it?

In this case, yes. If he really was a varsity player, then by lying to avoid a technical foul, he's giving up the possibility of using that player, with the jumping ability to dunk, in the game.

I'm pleased that the only statement in my post that you found implausible was that I would believe that the coach wasn't lying. It's looks like you believed that the rest of my post was very plausible. Thanks. Appreciate it.

rockyroad Sat Jan 21, 2012 07:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815473)
In this case, yes. If he really was a varsity player, then by lying to avoid a technical foul, he's giving up the possibility of using that player, with the jumping ability to dunk, in the game.

I'm pleased that the only statement in my post that you found implausible was that I would believe that the coach wasn't lying. It's looks like you believed that the rest of my post was very plausible. Thanks. Appreciate it.

I believe the original situation was a V player dunking during the JV warmups... but that really doesn't matter. The conversation should go:

"Coach, we have a T on 33 for dunking during the warmups."

"What? 33 isn't even on my team. He's a Varsity player."

"Sounds like you have some things to deal with Coach. We will be starting the game with 2 free throws."

bainsey Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 815479)
"Sounds like you have some things to deal with Coach. We will be starting the game with 2 free throws."

And you're charging the technical foul to....?

Adam Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:09am

So, this same player, in pregame while warming up with his JV buddies, sees you walk on the court. He's seen you before, so responds by saying to his teammates, "We're Fu@ked, this guy hates us."

Your call?

rockyroad Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815544)
And you're charging the technical foul to....?

The "bench" if I have to...

So the other Coach says: "Hey ref, why are we not starting this half with two free throws for that kid dunking.'

"Well Coach, you see, it seems that that kid is a Varsity player and since this is only the JV game I can't T him."

Really???:eek:

bainsey Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 815550)
"Well Coach, you see, it seems that that kid is a Varsity player and since this is only the JV game I can't T him."

Really???:eek:

"He's not playing in this game, Coach. I reported it to game management, and they're taking care of it."

rockyroad Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815555)
"He's not playing in this game, Coach. I reported it to game management, and they're taking care of it."

"How many other fouls are you going to pass over to game management tonight?"

bainsey Sun Jan 22, 2012 01:00am

He's NOT IN THE GAME.

Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route.

rockyroad Sun Jan 22, 2012 01:58am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815562)
He's NOT IN THE GAME.

Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route.

As soon as he joined the team during their warmups, he became a team member. It really is that simple.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2012 07:23am

In My Humble Opinion ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 815579)
As soon as he joined the team during their warmups, he became a team member. It really is that simple.

Even if "he" was a hot, single, Mom, in a short skirt, and heels? What if the dunker was a fan from the opposing team, with, or without, some type of similar jersey on?

In my opinion, standing in the layup line does not make you a team member. I'm sure that there are some other valid reasons for charging the technical, or technicals (scorebook), but simply standing in the layup line and dunking is certainly not one of them.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2012 07:27am

It Would Have To Be Two Technical Fouls If After The Ten Minute Mark ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815562)
He's NOT IN THE GAME. Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route.

So just charge the team technical for adding the name to the book, but don't penalize the team member for dunking? I'm not going that route.

constable Sun Jan 22, 2012 08:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 815579)
As soon as he joined the team during their warmups, he became a team member. It really is that simple.


If it is really is that simple there Yoda can you back it up with a rule and case reference?

bainsey Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815617)
So just charge the team technical for adding the name to the book....

No, sir. Just treat the dunker like a fan -- which he is -- and have game management deal with his removal.

Adam Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815650)
No, sir. Just treat the dunker like a fan -- which he is -- and have game management deal with his removal.

You've already provided the rule reference, and no one here is going to abuse the slippery slope, I think everyone seems to be satisfied with their own answee. Bottom line, coaches shouldn't allow this, so I'm ok with a bit of uncertainty here. Sort of like Mitch Williams on the mound.

rockyroad Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by constable (Post 815628)
If it is really is that simple there Yoda can you back it up with a rule and case reference?

Yoda??

Nice...

Go read 4-34 and the definitions there.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Jan 22, 2012 01:38pm

Let us get back on point.
 
I am going to apologize in advance for the length of this post but hope that everybody will give it a thoughtful read through. I should remind our newer members of the Forum that this thread is not the first time that this situation has been discussed; I am pretty sure that within the last ten (10) years it has been discussed here.

We can be presented with two different scenarios: 1) Pregame dunk in the JV game by a Varsity player, and 2) pregame dunk in the VAR game by a jr. varsity player.


Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety:

"Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules.
"

Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdiciton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age.


Let us discuss Situation (1) first, because it is the most likely scenario:

We all know that many times, especially in states like Ohio, that allow players to play in both the JV and VAR games (and even the FR game for FR, JV, VAR trippleheaders), that not all of the players warming up will be wearing identical uniforms and warmups; as long as everybody for a team is wearing the same color jersery is good enough to meet the uniform rules requirments (assuming that the individual jersey are otherwise legal).

Therefore, it is logicial to assume that all of the players who are warming up are members of the JV team. It is not part of the duties of the Game Officials to poll the players as to who is a JV player and who is VAR player who is just running through the warmup line. It is the responsiblity of the HC to manage his team and to know who is warming up and who is not warming up.

Without going into the history of the Dead Ball dunking rule, the rule was adopted as a safety rule. For those who want to research this further please do (please look up Daryl Dawkins, :D), but in the meantime take my word for it. Therefore, it would be well within the rules to penalize a VAR player for being in JV warmup line for dunking the ball.

NFHS R10-S4 (Bench Technical)-A1i states: "Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The penalty for the situation being discussed is a DTF charged to the Dunker and an ITF chargerd to the Dunker's HC.

My position has always been the same as Camron's and that this is apply NFHS R10-S4-Ai.

The real question to be asked in our situation is this: If the Dunk occured after the Ten Minute Mark, should an Administrative TF charged to the Team for adding a Player to the Roster. One part of me (the evil trouble maker part, :mad:) says yes, while the other part of me (the one that has mellowed over the years, :cool:) says treat the Dunker as a substitute in uniform that the HC has told to be ready to play in case of an emergency and if that emergency happens he will then add his name to the roster and take the TF. I take the latter position.

I have said my piece. Have at it boys and girls.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2012 02:23pm

Don't Confuse The Rookies ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815562)
Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815617)
So just charge the team technical for adding the name to the book, but don't penalize the team member for dunking? I'm not going that route.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 815650)
No, sir. Just treat the dunker like a fan, which he is, and have game management deal with his removal.

bainsey: I believe that you and I are on the same page on this, but in your earlier post you stated to "charge a team (not bench) technical foul" as an option, an option that you wouldn't take, but, nevertheless, an option.

How can you justify charging a team technical for a pregame dunk, it's a player technical? In my opinion, you're either going to have to charge two technicals (dunk, adding name to book), or none, and I would vote for none, and would simply, "treat the dunker like a fan, which he is, and have game management deal with his removal".

Camron Rust Sun Jan 22, 2012 02:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815700)
bainsey: I believe that you and I are on the same page on this, but in your earlier post you stated to "charge a team (not bench) technical foul" as an option, an option that you wouldn't take, but, nevertheless, an option.

How can you justify charging a team technical for a pregame dunk, it's a player technical?

See the following rule...

10-4 Bench Technical
The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Jan 22, 2012 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 815704)
See the following rule...

10-4 Bench Technical
The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.


Camron:

Billy is correct. You can not charge the TF as an Adminstrative TF; see the Penalty for NFHS R1-S4-A1i and my post above.

MTD, Sr.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2012 03:01pm

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. To The Rescue ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 815708)
You can not charge the TF as an Administrative TF; see the Penalty for NFHS R10-S4-A1i.

Camron Rust: You almost had me, but almost only counts in horseshoes, and hand grenades, not in Forum posts.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as
substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench
personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or
attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.
If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The
foul is charged to the offender
(if not the head coach) and also charged
indirectly to the head coach.

Well, now I know that if the head coach comes out and does a pregame dunk I can charge him with a direct technical foul. You learn something every day. Thanks.

So now we're back to the same question, is any pregame dunker: a person, in uniform, from another level team from that school; a hot, single Mom; a mascot; a fan, from that school, or another school, etc., considered bench personnel? Are they a team member just because they're in the layup line? I say, "No", to both, but that's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before, many, many, times before.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sun Jan 22, 2012 05:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815714)
Camron Rust: You almost had me, but almost only counts in horseshoes, and hand grenades, not in Forum posts.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as
substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench
personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or
attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.
If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The
foul is charged to the offender
(if not the head coach) and also charged
indirectly to the head coach.

Well, now I know that if the head coach comes out and does a pregame dunk I can charge him with a direct technical foul. You learn something every day. Thanks.

So now we're back to the same question, is any pregame dunker: a person, in uniform, from another level team from that school; a hot, single Mom; a mascot; a fan, from that school, or another school, etc., considered bench personnel? Are they a team member just because they're in the layup line? I say, "No", to both, but that's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before, many, many, times before.



Which begs the question, if the Assistant Coach dunks a Dead Ball in the pregame warmup do we WHACK him? :D

MTD, Sr.

just another ref Sun Jan 22, 2012 06:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815714)
Camron Rust: You almost had me, but almost only counts in horseshoes, and hand grenades, not in Forum posts.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as
substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench
personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or
attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.
If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The
foul is charged to the offender
(if not the head coach) and also charged
indirectly to the head coach.

Well, now I know that if the head coach comes out and does a pregame dunk I can charge him with a direct technical foul. You learn something every day. Thanks.

So now we're back to the same question, is any pregame dunker: a person, in uniform, from another level team from that school; a hot, single Mom; a mascot; a fan, from that school, or another school, etc., considered bench personnel? Are they a team member just because they're in the layup line? I say, "No", to both, but that's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before, many, many, times before.

So what? Charge it to the offender. Who's the T on? That guy right there who dunked. If he dunks again, he's ejected. He's not a player? Fine. That means he has to leave the gym.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2012 07:33pm

Who's Who ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 815765)
So what? Charge it to the offender. Who's the T on? That guy right there who dunked. If he dunks again, he's ejected. He's not a player? Fine. That means he has to leave the gym.

Have fun getting the charged technical foul recorded in the scorebook, because the name of the offender is probably not going to be there.

Adam Sun Jan 22, 2012 07:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815787)
Have fun getting the charged technical foul recorded in the scorebook, because the name of the offender is probably not going to be there.

Neither are the names of the coaches.

just another ref Sun Jan 22, 2012 07:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 815790)
Neither are the names of the coaches.

+1 That's what I was getting at. The name of the head coach may or may not be in the book, but certainly not anywhere with a place to mark a foul beside. As for an assistant coach, it is unlikely that his name would be written at all.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2012 09:13pm

Good Point ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 815791)
+1 That's what I was getting at. The name of the head coach may or may not be in the book, but certainly not anywhere with a place to mark a foul beside. As for an assistant coach, it is unlikely that his name would be written at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 815790)
Neither are the names of the coaches.

The plot thickens.

BillyMac Sun Jan 22, 2012 09:23pm

It's Elementary, My Dear Watson ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815813)
The plot thickens.

The Mark V basketball scorebook, one of the most popular basketball scorebooks, does have a place to list the coach's name, and it also has a place to check off any direct, or indirect, technical fouls that the coach may be charged with.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...9a1bece393e137

Once again, the plot thickens.

just another ref Sun Jan 22, 2012 09:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815816)
The Mark V basketball scorebook, one of the most popular basketball scorebooks, does have a place to list the coach's name, and it also has a place to check off any direct, or indirect, technical fouls that the coach may be charged with.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbn...9a1bece393e137

Once again, the plot thickens.

I stand corrected, but obviously this is secondary to the main point.

bainsey Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 815700)
How can you justify charging a team technical for a pregame dunk, it's a player technical?

If a kid dunks in pre-game, and he's not part of either team for a game, he's just a fan. How do we handle fans on the court? We allow game management deal with them by dismissing the disruptive fan.

Since 2-8-1 allows for Ts for disruptive fans -- with discretion, of course -- this could be your rule citation for a technical foul. Again, it's not how I would handled it (unless my association directed me otherwise), but it's a rule citation nonetheless.

constable Wed Jan 25, 2012 08:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 815668)
Yoda??

Nice...

Go read 4-34 and the definitions there.


I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

just another ref Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by constable (Post 816475)
I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

I believe this has been stated numerous times in the thread. If a person, any person, is dressed like the team, and warming up with the team, some of us consider that an affiliation.

Coach: "I didn't even know he was out there!"

Official: "It is your business to know who is out there."

Adam Wed Jan 25, 2012 01:04pm

Maybe the horse isn't suficiently dead after all, but I never saw an answer to this question:

In the pregame warmups for the varsity game, U2 approaches A1 to inform him that he needs to remove his Live Strong bracelet. A2, standing next to him, says, "Why don't you worry about the game, D1ckhead?"

As you go to the table to report the T, coach tells you that A2 is a JV player who is allowed to warm up with the varsity but won't be on the bench or roster.

You're not going through with this T?

rockyroad Wed Jan 25, 2012 01:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by constable (Post 816475)
I'm well aware of what the rule says. A JV player is not affiliated with the V team. If there name isn't on the sheet, if they aren't on the bench then they aren't affiliated.

Again- what if it was a fan dressed in warm ups that dunked?

Obviously you aren't familiar with 4-34, or you wouldn't be putting anything in your reply about their name being on a sheet...4-34 says nothing about a name having to be on a sheet.

What it does say is: ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

So...since this OP was during an intermission, and the kid was dressed as a player, and he dunked - which is unsporting behavior - he is penalized as bench personnel. It's right there...all you have to do is read it.


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