Starting the clock mechanic
 

I used to be really good at starting the clock and going from the 12 o'clock position to the 6 o'clock (so to speak). However, I have found myself recently starting the clock out to the side of my body especially when I feel the table may not be able to see my arm. In other words, instead of starting the clock in front of my body, I will go from 12 to 9.

With that said, looking for opinions on starting the clock properly. Also, do you have a closed fist, two fingers out, 1 finger, or use your whole hand.

Seems like there are lots of variations between junior high and the NBA. Looking for a good high school or college standard to follow here.

Honestly, there is no standard that everyone agrees with or even suggests at least at the HS level. I do not even know of one at the college level, at least on the Men's side. This is just one of those personal things that is about style and personal look.

I personally only go from 12 to 3/4 and close my fist. Never been told to do anything different and I like how it looks for me.

Peace

I probably go to 10/2 o'clock and have one finger out. Like Rut said, there really isn't a standard; find something that works for you.

There is a standard that many, except in states that are different, agree with and a standard that is suggested at the HS level -- the standard that our state asks of us, here in the land across the lake from Rut. It's not just one of those personal things that is about style and personal look, rather it is that of the Fed, which is what was first suggested in post #1: five fingers from 12 to 6, ala the faceless Mr. Pictograph guy #1. Fist bumps (said to be a college mechanic) and finger points are corrected to this standard at state camps.
Disclaimer: keep in mind not all states use NFHS mechanics from the Officials' Manual. Ours, and many others just happen to.

Even if there is a picture in a book, I have never seen anyone require or ask anyone to be that robotic or emulate a picture to the letter. We did not do that even when our state followed NF Mechanics. Maybe there are places that require this, but then they have too much time on their hands or nothing better to worry about as there are so many things no mechanics book covers and I would worry about those things as those things will help you get plays right.

Peace

Your stance on mechanics matters such as these is well known. And I don't necessary disagree with it being that way over there.
But gee, Rut, denigrating what other states do and why they do it ("robotic...emulate a picture...too much time on their hands...nothing better to worry about...") = :(
Aw, forget it.

I have never gone from 12 to 6, and it's never been brought up even in the harshest of critiques. I do about 12-9 with a fist.

I've lived in places like this. Your judgment can be crap as long as you give perfect signals and imitate the pictures in the mechanics manual.

I'd rather spend camp time learning how to get more calls right.

Not sure why you are so sensitive about it? You mentioned me in your post, I did not say anything about what others did in my original comments.

I have just never heard anyone care about something like this as you stated. Of course you will have people at camps tweak a mechanic or hand position, but not to the extent they follow the picture. I saw a guy yesterday in the prelim game give a hand check signal above his head, so that would get changed if that guy went to a camp I am sure. Actually the pictures have changed over the years and I almost never see a single official signal a bonus foul for example with hands straight across in the "Jesus" pose. Or I hardly ever see a "blocking" signal given with out "fists" at the bottom. I am sure there are officials or clinicians that worry about those things, but it is not that common. And if I am reading some of the other responses, I do not seem to be alone. And the places where people are making comments are certainly not from my state or region of the country. Not sure why saying that would upset you? Then again I guess we just have a different focus on what officiating is I guess.

Peace

Five Bucks Says I Won't Be Having the Last Word on This
 

:confused: :eek: That's either exaggeration for the sake of illustration, or a place I've never been before.

So, spending camp time learning how to get more calls right while using standard, accepted mechanics would be okay, right? :)
The two need not be mutually exclusive.

Something tells me Packerowner is in deep depression and I am sure he does not care about this topic anymore. :)

Peace

Why Not Do Both Correctly ??? Why Not ???
 

Agree.

Tuesday's basketball game can't get here fast enough, I was at the 2007 championship game and that was tough to take, but when you play that bad, I think you feel worse.

You could live in New Orleans. They thought they were upset yesterday, and now it turns out they could have hosted the next round.

No one was calling them a dynasty or saying that your QB was better than the last guy. I think the Packers fans want to jump off a cliff. Or maybe a pile of cheese.

Peace

It's a good time to be a 49er fan :D

Could be. And New Orleans is different in a lot of ways. They probably just changed the festivities from a celebration to a wake. To the casual observer, it would be hard to tell the difference.

As a matter of fact, the Fla. HS Athletic Assn. REQUIRES the open hand chop as well as open hands on hips for a block signal, the "Jesus" pose, and counting with an open hand. I have personally heard state evaluators insist that deviating from these (or any) FED mechanics or using college mechanics WILL keep you from advancing through the state tournament. Maybe clinicians in your part of the country don't find it critical, but the FHSAA, which has about 20,000 officials under it's influence, most definitely does.

Well I am a clinician in my part of the state (or just one that can work anywhere really). No we do not give a damn about this to that extent. Do we want officials to "stop the clock" or use the proper amount of fingers for directional pointing? Of course we do. But it has never kept someone away from working the State Finals or deep into the playoffs. It might be one of those things certain clinicians might focus on during a camp and usually that is if they have not much else to say. I have also never heard an assignor not hire someone to a game based on these things either. Actually there is some disagreement with certain assignors what is important to work for them.

It must be noted that this is not one of these things that is mentioned by the sports administrators that assign all the playoff games. And in basketball there are over 6000 officials (over 15,000 in all sports). We have two administrators, one for each gender and neither has ever claimed to have held someone back for these issues. Now do they have things that get them upset when we do not do them? Of course they do, but the biggest complaint we heard out of the IHSA office was not giving a preliminary signal at the spot of the foul. And it was claimed by many those assignors or clinicians that this was not something most cared about personally. We wanted people that could officiate and not get caught up in some mechanic that was not followed to the letter.

And personally someone that has worked a State Final in two other sports, I never followed to the letter every mechanic or signal and still got to those levels as an official. A great example is in baseball the signal for a strike is basically the hammer signal. I have never done that and when I was in the State Finals, no one commented once about that I did not follow the mechanic. What they did want is for us to be positioned properly or to call things that were in our area or move to the proper area mechanically (which may have not been what is in the NF books since we do not use their mechanics). And no one commented once about what we did or did not do in football when I worked in the same capacity.

Peace

I've never gone from 12 to 6. Doesn't look good to me.

We were taught to go 12 to 3 (or 12 to 9 I guess) with an open hand.

Same here. I've never even heard 12 to 6 before (and I don't think that's what's indicated in the pictogram either).

And, yet, that edict does not seem to inhibit many from earning style points.

Hmmmmmmmmm!!!! ;)

Peace

I probably do 12 to 9:30...pm of course.

In my experience, deviating slightly is not nearly as bad as using college mechanics. One of our very best has been passed over repeatedly and told point blank he'll never advance to the state tourney as long as he uses college mechanics. Sad and silly...but thats the way it is.

What is the college mechanic? I did not know there was a difference honestly.

Peace

Several that Im aware of...two hand reporting for fouls (college). Arm and hammer (college) on a foul instead of straight up with fist. Open palm for EVERY out of bounds (or any whistle other than foul). Fingers out to side at C when administring fouls. Those are the ones I've heard mentioned specifically. I'm sure there's more.

Not sad at all. He's clearly been told what is expected of him and he choose to not do it. That is on him. I'm sure that those that have been chosen in his place are just as good AND follow the instructions of those doing the hiring. I have no sympathy for someone who refuses to do the job as requested and gets passed over.

I also went and looked at the CCA Men's Mechanics for example and almost every signal that both the NF or CCA Men's shares is exactly the same. Of course the CCA has more signals, but the signals are almost the same. So I would ask those in any state that insisted that these were "college mechanics" to show where do they have evidence of that. Now maybe Women's basketball shows some different signals in style, but they also look practically the same. The difference in all of the descriptions are the fact the animation is drawn differently. The NF has a cartoon, the CCA uses a Man and a Woman, which my understanding were created by NASO.

Peace

Foul reporting area. Walk-and-talk vs stationary reporting.

Perhaps the better description is not that they are college mechanics necessarily but they are not approved mechanics at all (but are often seen and accepted in college games).

OK, I did not recall anyone was talking about two hand reporting. I thought we were talking about arm position on "counting the basket?"

Women's college goes table side on foul switching, are we going to consider doing that a college mechanic too (actually where it came from BTW)?

What if someone is a college quite (Men's) a bit and they forget to go opposite table like they are used to doing, are they operating college mechanics too? BTW that happened to me on Saturday and we filled in when it happened. We laughed about it in the locker room.

Peace

I do not even think it is about approval. I think not everyone is a robot, just like if you watch a dance competition you will see different styles or techniques used by different dancers. That is why it is perplexing when people assume something like how you count a basket if not done the way it was suggested is a "college mechanic." It seems like it is more about style than something approved or disapproved.

Peace

What's sad is that the state we live in is SO rigid that they are intentionally passing over an outstanding young official because of minor mechanics differences. He's tried to revert to satisfy them but in the heat of battle, he defaults to the highest level and most frequent set that he knows. I've heard this from other assn's around the state as well.

Yes, if they do it "every time."

It's much the same as the IHSA emphasis on "preliminary signal at the spot of the foul on every foul."

If an official did not use a preliminary signal, it has nothing to do with college ball or at least the college ball I work. In the CCA Men's Manual we are instructed to give a preliminary signal at the spot of the foul. And most college games I see there is a preliminary signal given on practically every foul. If anything that is probably a Women's college thing or what goes on in the NBA. I think people who do not know think if you don't use a preliminary signal like they assume with other things there is some college mechanic that applies to what they see and it does not at least when it applies to the one you see on TV all the time. ;)

Peace

Really? In college games you give a hold signal or a push signal on a shooting foul as the L? You'd be the first college official I'd ever seen do that.

I'm a Badger season ticket holder and the only preliminary signals I ever see are for blocks or PC fouls.

I watched 5 minutes of the college game on TV now and while I was reading this post. I saw several preliminary signals at the spot of the fouls. I cannot say I kept track, but the point is that the mechanic is to do that. Whether everyone does is another story. Never been told not to do it at the college camps I attended. Actually I have been told a of things that you see guys do not do on TV. The the next thing said is, "You are not.......you cannot do what they do."

Peace

Adding Fuel to the Already Raging Fire
 

Areas of Concern
Released on MyReferee: January 2012
Copyright© Referee Enterprises, Inc.
By Abby Bickel

We’re officiating junkies here in the offices of Referee Enterprises. Several games have been watched and officiated by staff members over the course of the first couple months of the season. Here’s what’s being observed. . . .

Mechanics. High school games require high school mechanics. College games require college mechanics. It’s as simple as that. Remember that you are not above any game that you have accepted to work. Using college mechanics in a high school game displays arrogance whether you want to or not. Using high school mechanics in a college game is a good way to irritate your assigner. Know where you are and use the correct mechanics to avoid confusion. . . .

:D

The Packer Backers will drink their sorrows away and eat dem Brats!:)

I swear that most times articles written in RefMag read like they're written by college interns.

Should I Put a New Paragraph Here, or Not?
 

Apparently that's okay, as long as they don't use high school mechanics when they compose their articles. :)

I see the hand-check signal given on the spot quite frequently.

Hand checks? In the Big 10? :D

The only preliminary signals I have seen in D1 games I watch are hand check, PC, and block. Pushing, holding, and illegal use of hands rarely, if ever, get a preliminary.

Are you saying that there is no such thing as "college mechanics"? I think two-hand/walking reporting, a different reporting area, not stopping the clock with an open hand, etc. are college mechanics. At least college officials are given leeway to do those things differently than most high school officials.

Around here in HS games we are expected to use approved HS mechanics. (Prelim. signal, point to throw-in spot, one-hand reporting, etc on fouls). It can be tedious, but I like it because it is very annoying when you work with a guy with poor mechanics. (Won't give the throw-in spot, etc) Most guys I work with have good mechanics.

I have seen the "chucking" signal for years. This year that is a new signal but it was added and I saw it all the time in games and I see many other signals.

Not what I said at all. I am talking about there is no "college mechanic" that says going from 12 to 3 O'clock is only a college mechanic or it is outside of HS mechanics. The signal looks practically identical in the book as well as other signals look practically the same. But because people assume things they see and then call it a "college mechanic" if it is not done to what they perceive to be a high school mechanic or style when I have never been told or known anyone to be told at college camps "That is a HS mechanic you cannot do that."

We are expected to use HS mechanics too. But the funny thing is I work a lot of both and if you watched me work a HS or college game, my mechanics are practically identical except for a couple of very small differences, like using the "chuck" signal for example. But the way I signal a basket counted, how I signal a one and one or even when I signal an "illegal use of the hands" are all the same. Actually I do not signal the last signal with a fist and no one says anything to me and it is the identical signal in both codes I work.

Peace

Would you say then that since the mechanics look almost the same in the book, that college officials are given a lot more leeway on what they are required to do signal/mechanic wise? From what I can tell they aren't required to stop the clock with an open hand (Some don't stop it on PC fouls), they report with two hands, walk when reporting, etc. I'm not trying to complain about college officials by any means, I'm just curious why the mechanics end up being so different sometimes.

By the way, when you guys talk about going from "12 to 3" or "12 to 4" when starting the clock, can you clarify? I probably have seen what you're talking about but I haven't heard anyone talk about it like that in person before.

I usually chop with one finger down to my waist almost right in front of my body, if that makes any sense.

2-hand reporting is an NCAA mechanic.

Walking and talking is the preferred by at least one D1 supervisor who recently retired from the NBA.

I know, that's why I was pointing it out to JRut that I have only seen college officials do these things and not high school officials.

I have seen high school officials do both these things, especially those who also work NCAA-W games.

I would not say that they are given leeway, I think the powers that be care more about officiating than signals. And I do not think they care about things like fitting the picture to a tee.

You are still supposed to stop the clock (same as NF). And just like anything in life people do not always do exactly what is written. It does not drastically change at the HS level either. When I watch HS games on TV I see a lot of things that are not HS mechanics either. I do not consider it any more than that, just an official not using the prescribed mechanics that is all. If the the assignor/supervisor does not care, why would we really care?

Peace

Picture hands moving on a clock with "12" being straight up and "3" being 90 degrees down from there. In other words my chop is an open hand straight up and then down to be parallel to the floor and hold that for a beat before I drop my arm.

Interesting...but mainly because it is a big no-no to do those things in high school games here. I personally don't have a problem with those things, but the people I get games from do care.

Yeah, so they're given leeway or freedom on how "By the book" their signals/mechanics are in return for being more highly scrutinized on their play calling and judgment. I think we're talking about the same thing.

So it's an area thing then. Most people here would get blasted on an evaluation for not stopping the clock, reporting with two hands, or not stopping to report.

Others here have said that "why can't you have both" proper mechanics and good play calling?

I've seen evaluations (I've lived in states where there was a central assignor and there are evaluators) and they spent so little time on play calling and judgment and so much time on stuff like mentioned in this thread that it was disgusting. It didn't matter if an official was wrong as long as they looked like the pictogram robots in the book when doing it.

Let's face it -- these mechanics are mostly unimportant from a practical standpoint. The stop clock is rarely looked at -- clock operators stop the clock on the whistle. The chop is unimportant, really -- I've watched clock operators and they aren't even looking at me when I administer a throw-in.

Around here I hear how important it is to use high school mechanics and then I turn on the TV and watch college officials use college mechanics when working the state high school tournament....more important to get people in those games that primarily work college games than it is to get people in those games that call plays well *and* use the proper mechanics. Those kinds of things are noticed by officials, trust me.

I think you can have both proper mechanics and good play calling. I also agree that there are people in charge in some places that are more worried about precise mechanics than their officials getting things right. I was more pointing out that college assignors seem to be less worried about perfect mechanics and more worried about getting calls right, so I think we're all in agreement here.

I completely agree, and I mention this to partners on a regular basis. There is no real reason to stop the clock with an open hand every time there is a violation.

I see it the same way, although I think the people in charge here do a good job of stressing good mechanics when officials are just starting out. It is good for 1st-3rd year guys to learn the right way IMO. I have noticed that as I have moved up a little bit, evaluations tend to be more about play calling and judgment and less about mechanics, although we are still expected to use "high school" mechanics.

I'm with you on the state tournament thing too. I haven't watched much of the state tournament here lately, but it happens in other games as well.

Remember the original conversation was about how we execute the stop clock signal and if 12 to 6 was proper as opposed to 12 to 3, which the latter was assumed a college mechanic by a few people here. I do not see officials using 2 handed mechanics at the HS level or at least not with people that know any better. Using 2 handed reporting is a college mechanic and is not appropriate to use. Not going 12 to 6 on a stop clock signal is a stylistic movement, not a college mechanic. Even not stopping to report is not always a college mechanic being used, it is often that officials are in a hurry and do not slow down. I see a lot of officials that report fouls like they have dinner plans right after the game is over. Even stopping to report is used in Men's college and is supposed to be used there too.

You could watch my mechanics in both a HS and college game and you could not notice what level I was doing unless I told you, or looked at the players. :D

I just think we are too quick to attribute something someone does to what goes on to college frankly most people do not know what is a college mechanic if it slapped them in the face. All you have to do is look in a CCA Men's book and quickly realize how similar those mechanics are to NF or HS mechanics. The CCA Women's does different things, but the officials I see doing those mechanics are not always Women's officials at that level.

Peace

Edited To Show Observations Relevant To Thread ...
 

Peter Webb's, IAABO "International" Interpreter, observations after observing our eight Connecticut State Tournament final games:

Stop the clock – every whistle for time-out, foul and violation rulings must be accompanied by the stop the
clock signal

Officials not accepting that the high school “package” of rules, mechanics, signals are expected when
accepting a high school assignment – have a professional approach and pride; honor the code that is in
place; respect officiating (an indication of not being prepared for the assignment)

Collegiate officials not caring enough to respect a high school assignment and service the schools and
game in a professional manner. Not a good example to display to other officials.

And yet who got the assignments? I'm sure those people used collegiate mechanics in HS games before getting selected.

The only way people will change is if some assignments are being lost. Till then, they'll only laugh at evaluations like this.

Damn The Mechanics, Full Speed Ahead ...
 

Coaches select officials for the state tournament. Obviously, coaches care more about calls, and less about mechanics.