Jump stop then pivot...Travel?
 

I found myself in the middle of a rules clinic following a game yesterday. The coach was concerned that we were calling a travel when his players jump stopped then pivot.
He was under the impression that many coaching/training videos instruct you do this.
Here are some examples of what he was talking about.
Hoop Group Skills Drill of the Week- Jump Stop/ Pivot/ Pass - YouTube

It seems the key that the players and coach are missing is the point where the ball is gathered. During the game they were gathering the ball with a foot on the floor, jumping off that foot, landing on both feet simultaneously, then creating a pivot.

If while they were still dribbling when they jumped in the air, then gathered the ball, followed by landing on both feet simultaneously, then they could legally create a pivot. Correct?

What do you think about the moves in the video? Legal or no?

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Those plays in the video all look good to me.

AllPurp because the dribble doesn't stop while either player has a foot on the floor?

The dribble is ending with both feet off the floor and then they land on both feet, right?

That's how I'm seeing the video.

You're correct about jumping off a foot after gathering the ball. 4-44-2-a-3

Yes, that's how I see it. In fact, that's the form of the jump stop I see most often...the player gathering while airborne.

Mistaken terminology
 

The video is not demonstrating a "jump-stop." It is demonstrating "coming to a stop on both feet." Each instance in the video is performed by gather ing the ball while in the air, and then coming to a stop on both feet, and then pivoting, which is legal - (4-44-2-a-1.)
If it were a true "jump-stop", then a pivot would be illegal. A true "jump-stop" is performed by gathering the ball while in the air, landing on one foot, and then proceeding to both feet, simultaneously - (4-44-2-a-3.) (And if anyone is counting, a subsequent travel constitutes four steps, or contact points with a foot and the floor.)
Some will include in the definition/description of a "jump-stop", 4-44-2-b, which seems to more apply to gathering the ball while stationary, and on one foot, and then jumping off that foot and simultaneously landing on both feet.
Both 4-44-2-a and b, conclude with the statement: "Neither foot can (legally) be a pivot foot."

NFHS does not define "jump stop" (iirc).

NCAA defines it as either (or both) of the above.

So, either way, when a coach (or parent) asks, "Can a player pivot after a jump stop?" the answer should be, "It depends."

I was unaware that NCAA has a definition of the term. Most of the terms used in coaching, playing, officiating basketball have come about by assigning some name to an action that is defined in the rules, whether legal or illegal, a verbal reverse-engineering, if one will, drop-step, and jump-stop being examples.
Unfortunately, some of the self-appointed instructors on the internet assign names to actions that are poor and/or incomplete/incorrect use of existent terms.

Excellent response, agree 100%. About two months ago we had a thread that was titled something like, "Good you make the call traveling videos" Some true jump stops were shown along with some other moves that are good for me to review.

The NFHS hasn't defined a jump stop...all the NFHS has done is describe situations in which a player may or may not pivot.

I agree. Please, see Post #9.

I have tried to study the jump stop extensively (hence my name) as I teach it to young kids. The smaller girl in the video comes much closer to "gathering or catching " the ball with one foot on floor than the taller girl. In fact at 2:14 and 2:45 you could make an agrument that one foot is on floor as she gathers.
With that being said, at full speed it is impossible to tell, only if I pause it can I determine. My point is unless it is blatently obvious that one foot was on the floor while gathering the ball you can't be for sure if it is a travel in this case.
I even made a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29Nvnsy3Ivw

What if feet don't land simultaneously when ball is gathered on one foot and then the jump?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-lIL...reply_received

The video explains it all: it's a travel.

Legal ???
 

Not so sure. Looks like the left foot is the pivot foot after the catch, and it looks like a legal catch and shoot. But I can be convinced otherwise.

Hard for me to tell for sure, but it looks to me like her right is the pivot. No jump stop, just steps after the pivot, including one with her pivot foot.

I would like to think that I would not call this a travel. I had to press pause button to determine for sure if she gathered ball with right foot on and it still was difficult to tell. She "cupped the ball with right arm and appeared to hold it against her chest , but let hand was not on ball" I think you always err on the side if your are not 100% sure then "no air in whistle". It did look funny but I try not to blow whistle on "funny".

Cupping the ball is all that's necessary. You let her get away with the travel and you have to call the foul.

Slowed down the play:

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I think it's close, but I would have said the player gathered the ball with her right foot on the floor thus making the play a travel.

Please tell me this is a walk...

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from reading the comments on the video you can see where a lot of misperceptions come from; one of the comments says something like "that move is on NBA2K12, it must be legal".

What is a walk?

In slow motion, yes that's a travel.

Am I going to pick a nit that closely? Nope...in real time, that would be close enough to simultaneous to me. I also wouldn't allow the player to pivot afterward.

Agree with APG. In real time I probably have nothing.

Concur, any doubt = no call.

Another agree (with APG and Welpe)....slow-mo, it is a travel. Live speed, probably too close to call.

You think that would be picky? That move is one of my pet peeves, that's the "crab dribble" that LaBron is so fond of. Although this one is not as pronounced as some I've seen. Granted that first angle it is tough because there are some other legs in the way, but from L I would hope I would have a good look at the little gallop he gets in there. As long as we agree this is technically a travel I'm happy.

Just so you know, this is a completely legal play under NBA rules...slow motion or otherwise.

Also, it's "LeBron" rather than LaBron ;)

Without slowing it down, I can't tell if the gather is with his foot on the floor or in the air. If it's in the air, it's legal. If it's on the floor, it's not legal. Since I can't tell in real speed, I'd let it go.

I agree , the main point I take away from discussing this move with many officials is : It is very difficult to tell if one foot is on the floor when the dribble ends (i.e. ball gathered). If the ball is gathered with both feet off the floor then you do not have to land 2 feet simultneously and you can pivot.

After watching many college games it is almost unheard of for this move to be called a travel. The best officials are not going to call travel on this play for 2 reasons: a) impossible to tell if one foot is on floor when ball gathered or b) difficult to tell if feet landed simultaneously

You will not see this called in the NCAA Sweet 16 games this weekend and it will happen 10 times in every game. Peyton Siva from Louisville does it every time he goes into lane.

These officials that are calling these games understand that you do not make travel calls when you are not close to 100% sure. Better to miss a travel than to call one that isn't there.

This is a huge deal. Forget about jump stops. If we could absolutely tell when the dribble ended, probably 75% of layups could be called a travel. And this cycle continues to spin. The more that is given, the more the players take, and the more that is not called at higher levels, the more it is expected (by some) to trickle down.

Hence why it is a good idea to not guess. Let's shoot the big fish and leave the guppies alone.

Vive La France ...
 

It's been forty years since I took high school French. I believe that the noun, "Bron", takes the masculine article, "Le", rather than the feminine article, "La".

Absolutely, The skills that players do in games have changed over the years from the crossover, Euro step, use of jump stop, step back jumper, or use of hesitation move. Players are being drilled on these moves all the time(just go to a skills camp) and they watch NBA or D1 players do them.

A really skilled player will push the rules to the limit and test the referees abilities. I think its great and most moves are in the within the rules. Lets face it the fans love to watch skilled players whether it is a step back jumper like by Kemba Walker , cross over by Steve Nash, or Euro step by Dwayne Wade.

In my opinion, I think NCAA Div. I or NBA officials embrace these skilled moves and understand them to the core and do not fight against them.
Just like this move in the video, he did not land simultaneously( but do they ever land absolutely simultaneously think about it? Did he gather with one foot on floor?

Now some things need to be cleaned up, like the Rivers kid from Duke shuffling his feet

And why not?

I agree, but only because it's hard to tell when he gathers. It's close enough that your statement here is less than true.

By rule it is most definitely a travel. The problem is determining that he gathered with his foot on the ground which is often difficult to do at real speed.