Discussed in an association meeting last night...
 

Just an example to remind me how hard inexperienced officials have it and also how important it is to have a good foundation in the rules.

JV game. Home team down 2 points. Shot goes up, covering official marks it as a 3-point attempt, successful at the horn. Everyone except the visiting team happy, right?

Until the other official comes out and insists that there was a foot on the line. The officials talk and they decide to count the bucket as a 2.

Tie game. Overtime, right?

Then the home coach goes nuts and gets himself whacked.

Then it all falls apart. Neither official knows for certain how to administer this situation. One official runs off the court to find a book and/or the varsity officials (who are getting ready) to help.

Somehow, they still get it wrong. They shoot FTs, the team hits one, and they call the game.

By the end of this, I was wincing. The lesson here? I frequently joke that you really don't need to know a lot of rules compared with other sports I work (football, baseball), but that's not really true. It's just that once an official gets a good foundation in the rules that it isn't really hard to keep up since rules rarely change (in such a way to make things really difficult for us).

I also heard last night that a JV Boys coach got ejected last week and I've personally had two head coach technicals (one from me, one from a partner) in the last two games. The season's heating up it seems.

Just curious
 

Was that the end of story?

I've also been thinking this season has been more heated than usual. My patience for coaches is running out.

I'm guessing he wasn't even there. I'm not saying a word about behavior, I'll probably jinx myself though I did toss a fan on Monday.

Rich, can you help newbies here with how the situation should have been handled? :)

I wince every time a veteran official tells me that "I just go officiate. I don't need to be a 'rule book' referee". These are the same guys who refuse to enforce the rules as written. (Won't call a T for a pregame dunk, won't call a T for touching the ball OOB when in possession of the thrower, won't give DOG warnings, etc) I think this is usually a "path of least resistance" thing and they don't want to rock the boat and get coaches upset with them. Might hurt that rating.

Since the shot was counted as two points, the game is tied at the end of regulation, so you will be playing OT.

OT starts with two FTs for the visitors with the lane cleared, followed by a division line throw in. Home gets the AP arrow.

Sorry Rich.

Relative newbie (3rd season) here.... let me know if I screwed up anywhere.

The 2-point vs 3-point should've been the call of the official who is in the primary.... so if the primary official signaled 3, it should've been 3. However, we're always told to "get the call right" so if the other official is 110% sure the foot was on the line, I'm ok with calling it a 2-point try.

At this point, tie game, 4th quarter is over, and any action thereafter happens in overtime.

Coach technical, therefore, occurs at the start of overtime. 2 shots for the other team with the lane cleared, throw-in at mid-court, arrow pointing to team whose coach got whacked.

Might get coaches upset?
 

Isn't there a coach on the "other end" of each of these calls or non-calls?

What's your point? And what does this have to do with the point Rich was trying to make with this thread?

I assume you're talking about my post?

Yes, you're right, but I often get the feeling that they either don't know the rules, or they "understand" because they wouldn't want such nit-picky things called on their team either. That or they don't see the infraction in question in the first place. (Like a dunk during warmups)

I think he was replying to me, but didn't quote me. I tied my little rant into Rich talking about officials having a good foundation of rules knowledge.

I sort of got it mixed up. The officials I'm talking about in part of my post do know the rules, they just refuse to enforce some of them. Then there are guys, veterans included, that just don't know the rules. I'm not sure which is worse.

I would add: (a) partner should be watching the release of the shot, to have an opinion about whether it beat the horn; focusing on the foot is the wrong place. (b) partner should be 100% sure that the foot was WAY over the line; a toenail is not enough to "fix" this.

Yes.... and (getting real "technical" here)?

I was responding to above, but yeah, it had nothing to do with the OP.

Way over? On the line is 2... as long as it shows up on the game film.

The coach sits for the rest of the game?

In a JV game? With 2 officials? How good a look do you think partner got?

Yes... annnd?

Add a foul to the team foul count of the home team?

That's fine. That's the rule which is really easy (if you know the rule). If the 4th quarter ends and the score is tied, anything subsequent is part of OT. If the score isn't tied, the technical is part of the fourth quarter (since there is no overtime without a tied score) and FTs are shot if they can affect who wins (or ties) the game.

Some of this stuff comes pretty easy to those of us who have experience and know the rules, but it's just a reminder that a lot of games are worked with 2 first year officials (for example) and reflexive rule knowledge isn't quite there yet.

Of course if the official did ask the varsity officials and they gave the wrong answer (I wasn't there), shame on them.

The same look we'd get in a 2-person varsity game, which probably 60% of my games are. Probably not one I'd touch *unless* it's an elephant on the court. My partners know though that I wouldn't come unless I absolutely had to.

Depends on where the shot was taken from. (where's mr. grammar guy?)

If it was near the FT line extended on L's side, both would have a look.

Bingo.

Extension of the fourth quarter.

Yeah, I agree. I have only given information to another official unsolicited once this year, and that was on an OOB call. It was a 3-person game and I was the Center. The ball got deflected and went OOB on my side of the lane on the endline, and I was positive about who caused it to go OOB. The Lead called it differently, so I just went to him and asked him how sure he was. He said he wasn't as sure as he would like to be, so I gave him what I had and he changed it.

I can see giving info on a 3-point shot if you're sure though. It is usually one in the gray area around the FT line extended. Lead marks the shot and Trail sees a foot on the line.

In the OP, the score was tied, then the coach got a technical, which should have been the start of OT. Seems pretty straight forward.

What if during the conference between the two officials, the coach had gotten a technical? Am I right in thinking that is still part of the 4th quarter? Since the error had not been corrected yet?

Rich,

Was there any clarity as to which official (lead/trail) called the three and which insisted he was on the line? We're taught to handle these things differently, whether it's the lead or trail that initially signals.

I'm curious as to why this would make a difference.

Agree....a foot on the line is a foot on the line. The standard I go by is that if either officials sees a foot on the line, it is a 2 and they should stop play and indicate that it is a 2....and whether it is 2-person or 3-person mechanics, there will always be an area where both will be taking a look at the shot. If that were not the case, you'd have areas where neither were looking at the shot.

Visualization, mostly. You mentioned before, Bob, the one area of the floor where both could get a good look at the shooter. Otherwise, wouldn't we have a simple case of ball watching?

Not necessarily.

Sneaking a peak on shot attempts to assist the crew is far different than ball watching.

Exactly. I was told, "Don't be a ball watcher, but always know the status of the ball."

This means that if a shot goes up, I'm doing everything in my power to get an angle as to where the shot went up and if it is a 3- or 2-pointer if its right near the 3-point arc. Of course, I can't see them all, especially if I have something that needs my attention right in front of me...

In this scenario, what is the most important thing(s) to get correct?

1) Know if the clock started
2) Determine if shot was 2 or 3
3) Was shot released before the expiration of time

If the crew needs to have 2 people on the ball, then so be it. That is what everyone else is watching and will be posting on youtube :D

Most times, if I'm lead in two-man and the shot goes up anywhere but my area, I don't know if it's a 2 or 3. The two exceptions I can think of; transition plays and end-of-quarter shots where nothing else is going to matter.

So basically your partner better get it & get it right?

Sneaking a peak doesnt take very long to do, 2 or 3 whistle system. Get a look at those feet & get back to your matchups.

The first time your partner marks an attempted 3 in the 1st half & the defensive teams coach goes off on you, "he's on the line!!" And you cant provide any help, I think you'll change your thought process on assisting with shots.

They hired a crew of 2 & if he dont look good, I dont look good...

1) At the end of the game (or quarter / half) all officials should have an opinion on all aspects of the last shot. Depending on from where it's taken, they might nt have much to offer, but still, ...

2) Whether it's "visualization" or not, it still doesn't explain why you'd have one practice if the T makes the call and another if the L makes the call. Are you saying that T should look in L's area, but L shouldn't look in T's area (or vice-versa)?

No. I'd like to know who had the three, who said it was a two, what angles both had on it, and how the team came to the determination that it was a two.

Additionally, in these parts, when a lead signals a three is good, the trail mirrors. (Vice versa, no mirror.) Did he trail clearly see the foot on the line? Instead of mirroring, I'd probably whistle pretty quickly if that were the case.

We can't sneak a peak every time. And a coach working me by saying "his foot was on the line" is not the reason to change how you are officiating. Why would you trust the coach's rantings over your partner's judgement?

+1

I met the official from the OP of this thread. He was working the JV game ahead of my varsity game tonight.

Nobody to this day had told him they got this wrong on the floor and that the varsity officials also got this wrong. I made sure I told him and told him exactly where he can find the rule, etc. Whether he believes me over the two from Tuesday that told him he was right, I don't know.

That's ridiculous. Does this pertain to all calls or just the 3-point line? Should I also make sure I double-check my partner's OOB lines? I can't get a good look at all 3-point shots - and I'm definitely not going to be sneaking a peak if I'm busy looking at my primary and other players. I have to trust my partner to do their job as much as they need to trust me to do mine.

I guess it could be "ridiculous" depending on the level one currently works & the quality of camps they attend. Many officials who dont camp anymore or just attend local HS camps (giving out last decades information) have this thought process.

Nobody said every 3 point attempt...

The correct point value is far more important than an OOB call :rolleyes:

99s are good PCA guys, Rs know whats going on in the GAME!

Darned right. If I'm the trail, I'm not going to be looking at a 3 in the opposite corner *unless* it's a shot at the buzzer. I look there and who's getting the two-handed shove that frees up rebounding space?

Borderline 3's right near the division of responsibilities? Of course. I'm noting what I see and if I need to get in, I will. I've only had one partner mark a 3 this year and it was clear to me that the player had a foot on the line. Fortunately, the kid missed the shot.

Ahh the old "if I went to a college camp I'm better than you" card. :rolleyes: You certainly implied all 3-pt attempts.

I've attended some very high quality camps and I still don't peek at a whole bunch of possible 3's taken outside of my PCA. I know which types of situations may need my help and which don't.

And even so I still always know what's going on in my games.

And I think maybe you should lose this "99" reference you use frequently. Kind of insulting, demeaning, and arrogant to officials who don't agree with everyone of your philosophies.

Based on your posting history I surmise you are being exposed to a lot of pro philosophy (NBA/D-League/semi-pros). But the philosophies and teachings for those leagues don't always translate to college and high school ball.

Just MHO.

I know I've asked this before...what's a 99?

For what it's worth, one of the most highly regarded camps in this area is high school oriented I don't know if that necessarily speaks to the quality of the ball here but you are a nobody in the chapter until you've gone to one of these camps.

Negative sir... sounds like the ol "damn, how did he know" retort.

Didnt mean to imply that, it all depends on who I'm working with & their position on the court.
Does a partners eyes follow the flight of the ball on shot attempts?
Does a partner position adjust on shot attempts?

The answers to those questions tells me how often to sneak a peak or if I even need to referee my 3rd & beyond.

Lets keep it real, all of us arent in this for the same thing & some of us aren't as skilled as others. I'm not letting the team crash & burn when I'm with a check collector or a ball watcher or a guy wearing the uniform who shouldn't be.

It's nights like those where you know you're being less effective cause you have to work your game and a big percentage of someone else's.

I filled in with a guy I never met last year. His eyes never left the ball. I caught this on the first halfcourt set. I found myself working off-ball even when the ball was in my primary. I was very uncomfortable all night.

It's why I'm happy that we have "regular" partners here and I work a large portion of my games with the same 2-3 people.

Was this to me? If so, my response is that in 2 man, as lead, I've got enough to worry about on 99% of the shots in his 3 pt primary (not talking about the plays that are close to my primary) that I'm not going to be able to get a peak. I have to trust my partner on this one. If I can't trust him on a 3 point shot, there are going to be some big issues.

I don't allow coaches to go off on me like this, either. Do you start watching for travels in your partner's primary just because a defensive coach went off on you for missing one?

This also implies that by you "helping" your weak partner out by making lots of calls in his primary and overruling a few 3-pt shots, it makes you look good. I'm not sure anyone looks good when this happens, and I agree it does happen. There's only so much you can do when your partner is weak, but I would argue it's a very rare game when you can somehow make up for his/her weakness and also make the whole crew look good. Once you have to start reaching, you start missing stuff that's in your primary. It's often a mess.

I agree, you worded it better. Not every situation & depending on your crew, maybe not at all.


Okay, even though I still get assigned as U2 on games thats my last time using 99 here.
But these arent MY philosophies, to be honest the guys I learn from dont like philosophies they say to stay away from them & call the game by the book.

Are there differences in rules, court coverage & approved signals? Yes but as long as the rim is 10' & the FT line is 15' & there are boundary lines & there are 5 players on each team at each level... Basketball is Basketball man!

I see nothing wrong with having the mindset of the best to do it & applying practices at the level one currently works.

Yeah, we have those too :rolleyes:
And once is suffice... no video, no can do! If they choose not to use me, trust, someone else will.

Oh okay, so others see it too! Thats all Im saying it depends on who you're with. It doesnt take many trips up & down to see what you need to do to assist a particular crew in being the most successful team of the 3.

Lucky guy!!!

I hear ya Snaqs, its quite the challenge sometimes. But thats why we do what we do, right? I trust all my partners until they give me reason not to. Had 2 person 3 nights in a row, luckily all with quality guys! So in these cases I didnt have to sneak-a-peak often. Like most of what we do, it all depends.

If I'm the T, I watch for travels in my partners primary (which is my secondary) throughout the contest. Believe it or not the post entry play is a 3 referee play.
L has illegal contact by offense & defense.
T has offensive feet.
C is prepared for the curl while watching the hook.

Yup all while officiating the players in their primary TOO. Multi-tasking is a great quality for officials to have.

I agree to a point, just because I extend my primary doesnt mean I'm putting whistles on plays there... just the obvious, meaningful plays & its always late as I gave them an opportunity. Getting obvious plays right looks better than no-call. At the end of the day thats what its all about.

Since when did we start overruling our partners in basketball :D

This is a great example, BTW. The L sometimes has the absolute worst chance to get a travel in the post and the T can be a huge help there.

I see the smiley, but I meant the 3-pt shot specifically - coming in and changing it to a 2 if you see a foot on the line.

L is too close to the play, T has the great open look. And some still get mad because you called a travel "in front" of them. Oh boy! Its 2012 people & the game has changed.


I know exactly what you meant, pregame determines how we do it.
Some people want you to come in & tell them you had a foot on the line so they can change it, others say if you're 100 change it yourself right then & there to keep the game moving.

I guess I didn't realize this was new; it's certainly being taught to us lowly high school officials; has been for years. And in this situation, I'm talking about you as L peaking across the paint to a player on the 3 pt line to see if he's traveling (the real equivalent to L catching a 3 pt shot on the opposite elbow).

Come on Snaqs, the largest part of my schedule is HS games. Lets not go there.

I've already provided the example of calling a long distance travel. Its from T to L not L to T/C outside the 3 point line.
FTR, if I'm peeking across the paint I should be moving my feet over there.

I was referring to your denigration of high school camps.

If I have a "weak/shouldn't be there/only for the $$$/warm body/etc" partner I'm only extending to get assault/batteries and only conversing if I think a rule is being misapplied or an "on the floor" should be changed to a shooting foul. Otherwise both coaches are going to have to live with the missed travels, missed handchecks, phantom "over the back" and "reaching" fouls, and confusing mechanics. Then they can call the assignor and submit the appropriate report.

If the assignor is willing to put that official in that game then the assignor can answer all the complaints. Or maybe the assignor is thinking the game is getting the quality of official it deserves.

I get that. A ball-watcher is going to lead to an assault-and-battery though, especially in higher level games. I'm not going to call the whole floor, but I know I'm going to have to extend my look in those situations.

Travels? Garden variety fouls? I'm with you. If I try to work the whole game, I'll be just as bad as my partner. Well, maybe not.

Thats what I was referring to.
Unless its a tryout situation, I dont attend any college camps without video.
On a scale from 1-10 the teaching provided by clinicians coming onto the court at t/o & halftime saying this & that is a 4, maybe. Going in to review the film after the game, now thats where the real learning takes place. I mean we are supposed to be going to camp to learn & improve, right. So I invest my hard earned money where I get the bang for my buck.

You opened that door. And I got the same message from it as Snaqs did.

Make no mistake, this camp is not one of those run of the mill camps that is put on by some regional assigner to work his games. It is run by one of the mostly highly regarded clinicians in Texas.

I've heard it was a great camp but they arent giving out old information either.
Sometimes we paraphrase to make statements mean what we want them to mean.
HS camps in general are not a bad thing, HS camps that arent current is another story...

You do realized that, for the most part, those upper level camps are largely just distributing last decade's information in a new package.

It is the people that are not going to camps that are really the ones that are probably missing out.

A/ Walking Buster
B/ Doing the crossword
C/ Getting ice cream and headed upstairs