Oops...
 

The Ragin' Cajuns Used The Rare Basketball Power Play To Beat Western Kentucky In Overtime

Hard to believe this could happen in overtime in a college game. Do you think a team could play with six in your game for :21 without anyone noticing?

I'm sure the three on the court thought it could never happen to them, either.

Happens to the best of us...

This happened in an NBA game a two years ago in a Celtics game...I believe the opponent scored a bucket or two before it was noticed by anyone. The next year, the NBA made a rule change and made 6 players on the floor a correctable error.

At 00:07...
 

...there are five RED players standing right in front of the C. What in the world could he have been focused on to miss that?

What is C pointing at at the 0:18 mark of the video? telling the L that the L has the 5-second count?

Red 1 stood in front of C unguarded for a long time, then red 21.

How so, APG? POI from the point #6 took the court?

Once it's been realized that six are on the court, the offending team is issued a technical foul. Afterward, the offended team has two options:

1. Continue from the point in time when the technical foul was issued.
2. Go back to the time when the ball was put in play whenever six players were on the court and wipe out any points and fouls except for flagrant/unsporting fouls and points scored from them.

If the ball was put in play from a missed free throw that remained in play, you would have a jump ball at center court between any two players in the game at the time. If it was a throw-in, it would go back to that original throw-in. If from a jump ball, it would go back to that original jump ball between the same two jumpers.

Wow! So then 3 guys didn't count 5 guys on either team! Because it is be rare that an official counts one team but not the other.

Announcers don't notice. Teams don't seem to notice (at least during play -- one coach approaches the officials after the game).

6 On The Floor, Uh-Oh
 

Officials could face suspension for failing to call technical foul on Louisiana-Lafayette for having six players on court - ESPN

Happens to the best of the best...

Sorry for re-posting this. I didn't make it through all the threads to see if it had been posted.

It goes to show you that errors at the end of the game are more egregious than at other times in the game.

When I help train newbies, and the topic of finishing comes up, I remind them that people mostly remember how you began officiating the game, and how you ended officiating the game.

So what was the proper way to call this penalty? Do you call it as soon as the extra man enters the court after the time out or do you call it after the ball has been whistled for play ???

If you see it when he enters, you send him back. This is not a penalty until the throw in is completed. If you know there are six (or more), don't start play until there are five.

Once the ball is in play, if you notice six, you call it immediately (unless the other team is about to shoot, then you wait a moment).

Why was I thinking there's a case play or interp that says we don't call this unless we catch it after the ball has been inbounded?

Because most times if we catch it before the thrower-in releases the ball we kill the play and fix it even though technically we should call a technical when the ball is at their disposal.

That's probably it.

Help me out here. If I see 6 on the floor before I give the thrower the ball, then I don't call the technical. Tell coach 6 on the floor. Problem fixed. If the ball is live (thrower has the ball) I do call the technical. Is this correct?

Per the rules, yes.

Yes.

You're thinking of the time frame to correct giving the ball to the incorrect team.

I've had weeks like this...
 

Seems like he's had some good seasons prior to this one, seems odd to can him now.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Drqi3L-qt58" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Interesting that the extra guy (the one who wasn't guarded in their man-to-man scheme) wasn't even involved in the play.

He was a decoy. :D

Just for good measure.....
 

When ESPN shows the clip they count and number all the players the entire time on the screen.........bizarre.

I'm double checking all the time tonight! ;)

looks to me like he got in position to dunk a potential miss, then busted his butt to get back on defense...

I'll be sure to make this part of my pre-game tonight..."U1-you count home team before every throw in... U2- You count visitors"

Yep, I didn't say he was motionless. Only unguarded and uninvolved in the actual play, the way it actually happened. Had he gotten the rebound that never happened, it would be a different story.

It almost seems like the player realizes something isn't right and then just kind of stands there wondering what to do...

Quiz Time ???
 

Rule 10-1-6: A team shall not: Have more than five team members participating simultaneously. If discovered while being violated.

Here’s the only casebook play involving more than five team members participating simultaneously: 10.1.6 Situation: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court. RULING: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.

Here’s my problem. I wish that the NFHS was more definitive about what "participating" means, as well as what "while being violated" means. If there are six team members participating, does it matter whether, or not, the ball is dead, live, clock running, clock not running, or if there is, or isn't, a timeout (not an intermission)? What defines whether, or not, a player is participating? Does it have to be during a live ball, clock running, situation? Can it be during a live ball, clock stopped situation, i.e., ball at disposal of free throw shooter? Can it be during a dead ball, clock running situation, i.e. dead ball immediately after a made field goal? How about during a dead ball, clock stopped situation, i.e during a timeout?

Here are some situations that are confusing me:

A) Head coach of Team B requests, and is granted, a timeout, at which point he immediately complains to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. The sole purpose of his timeout is to call attention to the officials that Team A has six team members participating. Officials, who have been unaware that six team members have been participating up until that point, count six Team A members on the court before they head into their timeout huddle. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call? Please note that in 10.1.6 SITUATION (b) (above) the officials were not aware of the additional player until after time expires, which, to me, means the same as an intermission, when all team members are bench personnel. The situation that I have described here in not during an intermission, but is during a timeout.

B) Team B head coach yells to nearest official that there are six Team A players participating. Official sounds whistle to stop the action to count the players and discovers that there are six Team A team members on the court during this dead ball, clock stopped, situation. What's the call?

C) Team A has six team members participating, which goes unobserved by the officials. Official calls a travel violation on Team A. There are no substitutions after the whistle. Before administering the throw in, officials observe that Team A has six team members participating. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

D) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. Before bouncing the ball to the free thrower for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

E) The last Team A free throw attempt is successful. The clock hasn't started. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

F) Team A has six players on the court. Officials are unaware of this infraction. Team A has been awarded two free throws. The first free throw is missed. No substitutions are made. After bouncing the ball to the free thrower, and with the ball at the free thrower's disposal for his second free throw, the officials realize that Team A has six players on the court. The ball is live, and the clock is stopped. What’s the call?

G) Team A scores a field goal. Six team members on Team A are setting up a full court press. Officials become aware of the extra player before the ball is at the disposal of Team B for a run-the-endline throwin. The ball is dead, and the clock is running. What’s the call?

I was tempted to just link to my own post in another thread, but hey, why not just post the pic?

http://artbyjeff.com/illustration/quixote1_lg.jpg

Don Quixote De La Mancha ???
 

Loudwhistle2 was asking for help. Well, so am I. So please help.

It is my contention that once six players get into the game, it's not as cut and dry as most people would assume to charge the technical foul. There's no defined time limit, like a correctable error, but there are limits. That's why it's imperative to do some preventative officiating to keep this from happening in the first place.

A Mark Goodson Bill Todman Production ...
 

Hey. That's my line.

I've got a T in all of these, Billy.

Any Other Opinions ???
 

Thanks. Others may differ with you, including my local interpreter, who couldn't get any help from either the NFHS, nor IAABO, on these plays. It's like these plays were covered with smallpox viruses, or bubonic plague bacteria, and nobody wanted to touch them.

By the way? Are you up to date on your vaccinations?

Until somebody tells me different, and they often do, go with something simple.
Who participates? Players. By definition, all 6 on the court are players in all these situations, are they not?

Nope, players are legally on the court, so you can never have more than five players from either team at any one time. You can have six team members participating.

BTW this happened in a Big East game about four years ago involving Georgetown. The opponent had six take the floor following a time-out with under 10 seconds remaining for an inbounds play. They scored a basket, then Georgetown beat the six-man press to score at the other end and force OT. Mike Kitts was the R and he owned up to it and told the conference to penalize him, but all three officials were suspended.

If six are on the court, which one is illegal? Five is the legal number. If you have six, that's why it is a technical.

That's why it's a team tech and not a sub tech.

I was at the game. (I'm a student at WKU)

I feel bad for the officials because I feel like they did a good job all night except for the end. I had no idea there were 6 guys on the floor until the end when everyone was taking about it. As a fan, its impossible to be mad because only one of the six touched the ball anyway.

A rationale, and even empathetic-towards-the-officials, response from a fan. Thank you. My head just asploaded.

I'm a second year official, LOL. I've been lurking this forum for a few Weeks and seeing this thread finally prompted me to join.

It is amazing how much calmer I am toward officials now that I am one. I usually spend more time watching them than the actual game, amazed by their demonstrative mechanics and strong calls

Thank you guys for all your help so far, just from reading all these threads

Yeah ... doesn't count then :)

Welcome to the forum ... college is probably the best time to start officiating. If you love it and stick with it, there is a ton of opportunity ahead for you!

So if a team has 6 on the floor, it has no players?

That's what I hope! I'm always trying to become a better official and to move up

Play situation – six players on court
 

Discuss amongst yourselves:

What would "Personal Knowledge" mean besides seeing 😳 6 players?
- 3 officials get together after the expiration of time and one says I remember seeing players #1 & #2. The other 2 say they saw #3, #4 & #5, #10 respectively. Does this constitute "Personal Knowledge"?
- What if there is a standby official at the table that tells the officials there were 6 players. Is this "Personal Knowledge"? What if it is the Timer or Scorekeeper that tells the officials there were 6 players?

I'm surprised they don't make this a reviewable play. I'm thinking "Personal Knowledge" is a flexable way to give the officials a chance to get it right when it is obvious to everyone (but the referees) in the gym what happened.

It still means seeing the players.

Just not "seeing the violation" which can only happen while the ball is live.

So, the game ends and you now see 6 "players" -- enforce the T.

You see someone run off the court and turn back and still count 5 players -- enforce the T.

That's what I'm thinking. The official's memory (and integrity) are to be used as definite knowledge.

I think that all of those would qualify as personal knowledge.

Wouldn't be surprised to see the rule changed next year that would make this reviewable.