Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 810801)

I consider the multiple foul for half a second,

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 810801)

JV Boys, two-man crew. I'm the L.

A-1 drives for a layup and is fouled, double whistle. I have a holding foul on B-2; my partner has a push on B-3.

I consider the multiple foul for half a second, but I insist on just going with B-2. My partner agrees (or doesn't disagree, really), and I report the foul.

It was a relatively clean game (15 fouls in total), so I didn't see the point of getting both of them, particulary since the shooter is getting two free throws either way. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 810824)

I think it's ok that the "multiple foul" went through your head - it shows that you understand what a multiple is.

Now, that you didn't actually call a multiple foul is even better. Pick one and move on. If the fouls are about the same in severity, pick the first. If they're not the same in severity, pick the more severe one (ruling the other as incidental).

Originally Posted by tref (Post 810828)

How about incorporating total player fouls into this mix?

Originally Posted by tref (Post 810828)

How about incorporating total player fouls into this mix?

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 810841)

By that, do you mean, asking how many fouls each player has? If so, THAT'S a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by tref (Post 810828)

How about incorporating total player fouls into this mix?

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 810841)

By that, do you mean, asking how many fouls each player has? If so, THAT'S a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by tref (Post 810847)

Asking? This is something one has to know, at all times!

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 810841)

By that, do you mean, asking how many fouls each player has? If so, THAT'S a slippery slope.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 810846)

How about the primary official just taking the call and moving on?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 810848)

I might know if a player or 2 is on their 4th foul but I'm definitely not going to know every player's foul situation.

Originally Posted by tref (Post 810853)

If thats how you want to run your ballgames. In mine the knucklehead gets the foul in multiple situations.



I try to stay cognizant of all the quality players fouls.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 810857)

Who said there was a knucklehead involved?

And if I'm the primary and I have a clear foul by B2 you're saying I should then have a discussion with my parnter to see if he had the same foul? Folks I work with are going to expect me to take my foul to the table.

Originally Posted by snaqwells (Post 810866)

if i'm doing a game in the eagle's nest, i'll probably give it to #34.

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 810824)

I think it's ok that the "multiple foul" went through your head - it shows that you understand what a multiple is.

Now, that you didn't actually call a multiple foul is even better. Pick one and move on. If the fouls are about the same in severity, pick the first. If they're not the same in severity, pick the more severe one (ruling the other as incidental).

Originally Posted by tref (Post 810828)

How about incorporating total player fouls into this mix?

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 810934)

Multiple Foul:
a. One free throw for each foul:
(1) No try involved.
(2) Successful or unsuccessful two-point try or tap.
(3) Successful three-point try or tap.
b. Two free throws for each foul:
(1) Intentional or flagrant foul.
(2) Unsuccessful three-point try or tap.

4.19.11 SITUATION: B1 and B2 foul A1 at the same time while A1 is: (a) driving
down the lane; (b) in the act of shooting a successful or unsuccessful two point
try; (c) a successful three-point try; or (d) an unsuccessful three-point try.
RULING: One free throw for each foul in (a), (b) and (c) and two free throws for
each in (d). (10 Penalty 6)

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 810966)

I've gotta ask. Why does this case play have no significance with anyone, but 4.19.8 C is treated as gospel of the highest kind by everyone and explanded to include other things that are not even there?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 810857)

And if I'm the primary and I have a clear foul by B2 you're saying I should then have a discussion with my parnter to see if he had the same foul? Folks I work with are going to expect me to take my foul to the table.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 810866)

If I'm doing a game in the Eagle's Nest, I'll probably give it to #34.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 810966)

I've gotta ask. Why does this case play have no significance with anyone, but 4.19.8 C is treated as gospel of the highest kind by everyone and expanded to include other things that are not even there?

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 810998)

Just cause.

Any other answer I give will result in me eventually banging my head off a brick wall.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811007)

What does that mean? 4.19.11 is a direct extension of the rule, unlike the other which reaches a conclusion that <strike>nobody</strike>everyone but me would have come to on his own.
You yourself once said that you wouldn't come out with a double foul in a blarge situation. Did that change or were you kidding?

Originally Posted by RookieDude

As one poster said earlier...just because a signal is made, does that make it a call. If the "signal" was never reported...then does that mean it never happened, and thus was not an actual call? (you know...sort of like the tree in the forest)

Your case play states two calls are made. Therefore, I am assuming both officials could not get together and decide which call to make. Soooo, in this case...you are correct...score the basket.

I am simply saying...that in my games...we will get together and come up with ONE call, not TWo...as stated in your case play.

If I am reading this case play wrong...then I guess I will miss this inteurpt...but, at least I will be consistent with what my fellow officials do in this area.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

If I were ever to end up in a blarge situation, we certainly wouldn't come out with a double foul. I'd pretend I was working an NCAA-W game, if only for a moment.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I have never understood why this is a special situation.

If my partner signals a held ball and I have a fist up for a foul, we don't apply both. If I call a travel and my partner has a foul, we don't call both.

Like I said, 20 years without this happening and the closest I got was earlier this season, although my grandmother could've made the charge call and she died 20 years ago.

I would like to think I could sidestep the rule book and do what I posted earlier, but I'm cursed with a pretty good knowledge of the book and a history of enforcing it even when it wasn't the easy or popular thing to do.

Originally Posted by Mark T. Denucci, Sr.

Rich:

I agree with you 100%. I have argued this point for years. The rules as written prohibit blarges. Either it is a block or it is a charge, not both.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811007)

What does that mean? 4.19.11 is a direct extension of the rule, unlike the other which reaches a conclusion that nobody would have come to on his own.
You yourself once said that you wouldn't come out with a double foul in a blarge situation. Did that change or were you kidding?

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 810973)

Once again, Roman Law.

If my partner and I have whistles, we briefly talk about it. A great majority of the time, we have the same thing. ("20 white?" "Yup.") If we differ, we discuss.

....

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 811048)

I'm only talking if one of us has a closed fist and the other an open hand (or held ball signal in combination with fist/hand).

Other than that the converstations are "I got it" or "you take it".

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 811048)

I'm only talking if one of us has a closed fist and the other an open hand (or held ball signal in combination with fist/hand).

Other than that the converstations are "I got it" or "you take it".

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 811047)

I feel like I'm at a bar listening to a drunk recite the same story over and over again. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by tref (Post 810828)

How about incorporating total player fouls into this mix?

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811019)

Not everyone, or at least not always.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811136)

Forget the specifics. Generic question.


Why is it that one case play carries infinitely more weight than another?

Originally Posted by mplagrow (Post 811137)

I don't think you should even know how many total fouls either player has. Shouldn't matter on any call you make.

Originally Posted by tref (Post 811147)

If thats how you like to go about managing your ballgames, fine.
But I want to know the consquences of my whistle, at all times. I want to know prior to blowing my whistle that the star kid is done for the evening. I can take it to the table a bit stronger, I dont have to hear the horn bring me back to the table just to say, "thats 5."

Make a BS call out of your primary for a quality players 5th foul without being cognizant of that fact! When the player gets upset & shows some emotion, go ahead & stick the DQ'd player making the coach lose his box on top of it all.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811019)

Not everyone, or at least not always.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811115)

I'm the one in a room full of drunks. Why do this? Because of the case play.
That's not what the case play says, and even if it is, it's stupid. You have to do it anyway. What about this case play? That case play doesn't matter. Why not? cause

:confused::rolleyes:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 811145)

It doesn't.

Play 1) L signals Block, T signals Charge. Ruling: Double Foul

Play 2) L blows whistle, thinks "block". T ... "charge". Ruling: Officials decide.

Play 3) L signals foul on B1, T signals foul on B2. Ruling: Multiple foul (THIS IS THE CASE PLAY AND HASN"T OTHERWISE BEEN DISCUSSED).

Play 4) L blows whistle, thinks "foul on B1." T ... "B2." Ruling: Officials decide which single foul (THIS IS THE CASE THAT GETS DISCUSSED EVERYTIME (ALMOST) ABOUT MULTIPLE FOULS)

Play 5) L blows whistle, sees contact by B1 and B2. Ruling: Official decides which single foul. (THIS IS THE OTHER CASE THAT GETS DISCUSSED ON MULTIPLE FOULS)

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811161)

This is really a stretch. Neither case mentions signals, but if we assume that signal=call and go forward, here is the problem now.

4.19.11 doesn't say foul or signal. It says if they both foul, here is what you do. Yet everybody, including me, says call one foul. Which means we are ignoring this case play totally. That is perfectly all right, but the other case matters more because?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 811154)

That player isn't DQ'd until you tell the coach, so this scenario is unlikely (I've never seen a player wait even long enough for me to report the foul before getting chippy).

That said, I'm not tracking all their fouls, but I'll know when #11 gets three fouls in the first half; or if #44 is on #4.

Had this last night, and #44 ended up fouling out with a foul that was in the top 5 easiest intentional fouls I've called.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 811168)

Sigh. I should have know better. Where's that emoticon of me beating a dead horse's head against a tilted brick windmill?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 811163)

But what is a foul? It is contact that is called. If it isn't called, it isn't a foul.

Originally Posted by tref (Post 811165)

I've had players think they were on 3 when in fact they were on 4 & since we notify the coach first, welll...

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811176)

The definition of a foul is not the question. It is a given in the case play that they both foul, but everybody says call one.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 811186)

No, it if is not called, it is not a foul. If they call only one, they have decided the other is not a foul.

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 811211)

Agreed. And if you can ignore the foul on one play, you can certainly ignore it on the other, when it is in fact impossible that two (block/charge) occurred at the same time, whether a signal was made or not, and nothing is written anywhere which says differently.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 811292)

Sure there is...neither official's judgment supersedes the other. Once a signal is made, the official has declared their judgment. For either to change would be equivalent to one's call overruling the other....which, by rule, is not allowed.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 811319)

Oh brother!!!! :rolleyes:

Peace

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 811340)

All I needed to see to know there's no reason to "view post."
Thanks

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 811341)

I knew there was a reason not to view this post earlier.

Peace