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force39 Fri Dec 30, 2011 06:30pm

Blarg
 
Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

BillyMac Fri Dec 30, 2011 06:41pm

Casebook Play ...
 
4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball.
Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter
A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the
other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.
RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it
is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul.
The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal
is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for
Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try
in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)

Camron Rust Fri Dec 30, 2011 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by force39 (Post 809472)
Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

Almost....charge both and go to point-of-interruption (which may or may not be the AP).

refiator Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 809480)
Almost....charge both and go to point-of-interruption (which may or may not be the AP).

Yep. Gotta have a double foul and go with the AP....Then have a long talk at your earliest opportunity on how to avoid this in the future....A good pre game on primary coverage areas will help this.

bob jenkins Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by force39 (Post 809472)
Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

Unless you're working NCAAW, the ruling is correct.

Raymond Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by refiator (Post 809516)
Yep. Gotta have a double foul and go with the AP....Then have a long talk at your earliest opportunity on how to avoid this in the future....A good pre game on primary coverage areas will help this.

Earliest opportunity for a long talk is the pre-game. After the fact a good official will recognize if his actions are what caused the problem.

AP is not automatic, depends of the status of the ball at the time of the double foul.

BktBallRef Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by refiator (Post 809516)
Yep. Gotta have a double foul and go with the AP....

Not necessarily.

If there's team control, POI, team A keeps the ball.

If there's a shot and the basket is good, POI, Team B gets the ball for throw-in, with the opportunity to run the endline.

JRutledge Sat Dec 31, 2011 02:40am

I had one happen to me about a week or so ago with a fellow poster watching (at least I think he was watching at that time). I hate it when it happens, but it happens to the best of us. I did not see my partner and I signaled. Oh well, life moves on.

Peace

BillyMac Sat Dec 31, 2011 07:07am

It Could Happen ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 809544)
I hate it when it happens. I did not see my partner and I signaled.

I hate it when, as the lead, I don't hear my partner's whistle, usually due to crowd noise, and figuring that I'm the only caller, immediately come out with a strong player control foul signal, or a strong block signal, only then seeing my partner's fist in the air. So far, in over thirty years, no blarges, but it still scares the hell out of me.

vbzebra Sat Dec 31, 2011 08:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 809557)
I hate it when, as the lead, I don't hear my partner's whistle, usually due to crowd noise, and figuring that I'm the only caller, immediately come out with a strong player control foul signal, or a strong block signal, only then seeing my partner's fist in the air. So far, in over thirty years, no blarges, but it still scares the hell out of me.

exact thing happened to me last year (first and only time), and Murphy's Law, my commmissioner was watching...pregame, pregame, pregame!:D

JugglingReferee Sat Dec 31, 2011 09:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by force39 (Post 809472)
Blarg happens, I had an official tell me that the way to handle is to give each a foul and go alternating possession? Doesn't sound correct? How would you handle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 809475)
4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball.
Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter
A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the
other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.
RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it
is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul.
The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal
is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for
Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try
in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)

Force,

Because the calls are judgement calls, both fouls are penalized.

Imagine that only the L had a whistle on the play. The T did not have a whistle, so therefore just stood there watching the players after the L had the foul call. The L does his prelim and in his judgement, it is a block. Whether or not anyone agrees with the call, including the T who stayed silent on the matter, the crew will enforce a blocking foul.

Now imagine that only the T had a whistle on the play. The L did not have a whistle, so therefore just stood there watching the players after the T had the foul call. The T does his prelim and in his judgement, it is a player control foul. Whether or not anyone agrees with the call, including the L who stayed silent on the matter, the crew will enforce a player control foul.

Now imagine that both signal a prelim without waiting to see what the other official has. Since they both signalled, both are expressing their judgement of the play. Backtracking on one of those opinions (ie. only enforcing the block or the PC) throws both guys under the bus.

Their credibility could be shot. And that is what the case book play is avoiding, imho.

To prevent this, officials need education about situations where the blarge could come into play:
  • whose primary did the play originate from?
  • who has the primary defender and who has the secondary defender?
    • and for that matter, what is a primary defender and what is a secondary defender
  • the pass and crash situation

Also to prevent this, officials need to follow approved mechanics: when your whistle goes, raise the fist in the air, and pause for a heartbeat or two, giving time to see if your partner has anything, and then make eye contact and go from there. IOW, don't go right to the prelim - which is what causes many blarges.

bob jenkins Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 809557)
I hate it when, as the lead, I don't hear my partner's whistle, usually due to crowd noise, and figuring that I'm the only caller, immediately come out with a strong player control foul signal, or a strong block signal, only then seeing my partner's fist in the air. So far, in over thirty years, no blarges, but it still scares the hell out of me.

For whatever reason, it's hard for the L to hold the preliminary. It's much easier for the T/C to hold the preliminary. So, if there's a blarge, I usually "blame" the outside official.

BillyMac Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:14pm

Whistle ??? What Whistle ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vbzebra (Post 809566)
exact thing happened to me last year (first and only time), and Murphy's Law, my commissioner was watching...pregame, pregame, pregame!

Every single pregame that I participate in, as either the referee, or the umpire, will contain some variation of the following:

On double whistles, let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal.
Make eye contact with each other. Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, most often the
lead official, unless you definitely have something different that happened first, in which case we’ll
talk about it.

Of course, this only works if both of the officials realize that there has been a double whistle.

VaTerp Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 809592)
For whatever reason, it's hard for the L to hold the preliminary. It's much easier for the T/C to hold the preliminary. So, if there's a blarge, I usually "blame" the outside official.

Yup. Most pre-games around here involve discussion on the T/C holding off on giving a prelimiary.

Not sure of the reason either but I know it just feels natural to come out with a strong prelim as the L.

fullor30 Sun Jan 01, 2012 02:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 809592)
For whatever reason, it's hard for the L to hold the preliminary. It's much easier for the T/C to hold the preliminary. So, if there's a blarge, I usually "blame" the outside official.


So very true..........

refiator Sun Jan 01, 2012 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 809527)
Not necessarily.

If there's team control, POI, team A keeps the ball.

If there's a shot and the basket is good, POI, Team B gets the ball for throw-in, with the opportunity to run the endline.

True. I did not consider those scenarios. Thanks.

bainsey Sun Jan 01, 2012 09:56pm

I've had one blarge this year. I was the lead and had a block. My partner was the trail and a had a charge.

We had a double whistle and fists up, but neither made the next signal. We had eye contact, so we approached each other to talk about it.

I thought it was an easy block, but my partner told me the dribbler had an outstretched limb, which made the initial contact. In this case, we opted not to go with the double foul, and my partner reported the PC foul. (It made for an interesting moment, as the kids starting to line up at the lane while we were discussing.)

Simply put, talk about it first. If you still insist that you're call is right, and your partner sees it differently, the only choice is a double foul. However, it helps to communicate first.

Adam Sun Jan 01, 2012 09:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 809933)
I've had one blarge this year. I was the lead and had a block. My partner was the trail and a had a charge.

We had a double whistle and fists up, but did not make an initial signal. We had eye contact, so we approached each other to talk about it.

I thought it was an easy block, but my partner told me the dribbler had an outstretched limb, which made the initial contact. In this case, we opted not to go with the double foul, and my partner reported the PC foul. (It made for an interesting moment, as the kids starting to line up at the lane while we were discussing.)

Simply put, talk about it first. If you still insist that you're call is right, and your partner sees it differently, the only choice is a double foul. However, it helps to communicate first.

That's not a blarge. That's a double whistle.

bainsey Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 809934)
That's not a blarge. That's a double whistle.

Fair enough. And you call me picky. :D

Adam Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 809935)
Fair enough. And you call me picky. :D

:) Yeah, sorry about that. You're ability to withhold the prelims saved you from having to go DF.

just another ref Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 809936)
:) Yeah, sorry about that. You're ability to withhold the prelims saved you from having to go DF.

:)

Raymond Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 809934)
That's not a blarge. That's a double whistle.

Exactly. Double whistle, no prelims, easy to settle. Not a blarge.

BillyMac Mon Jan 02, 2012 07:16am

If There's A Double Whistle In The Forest, And No One Hears It ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bainsey (Post 809933)
We had a double whistle and fists up, but neither made the next signal. We had eye contact, so we approached each other to talk about it.

That's exactly the way we're taught to handle it. Of course, this only works if both of you hear each other's whistle.

bob jenkins Mon Jan 02, 2012 09:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 809957)
That's exactly the way we're taught to handle it. Of course, this only works if both of you hear each other's whistle.

Or, they could anticipate that the call is in such an area where a double whistle is likely and actually LOOK at their partners.

Rob1968 Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 809973)
Or, they could anticipate that the call is in such an area where a double whistle is likely and actually LOOK at their partners.

In my pre-game, I tell my partner that I expect a few double whistles, in the right areas, for the right reasons, at the right times. And I tell them that I have the ability to give the preliminary signal - hand raised, open or in a fist - without going to the secondary signal, until we have checked with each other. It only takes a moment to determine which of us will take the call.
As the players and coaches see our communication, it helps with their confidence that our crew is working together, and trying to get the calls right.


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