Charging vs. Player control
 

All charges are not player control fouls

but

Are all player control fouls charges?

I'm having trouble thinking of examples of player control fouls that are not charges.

Can anyone help?

A1 with the ball pivots into a stationary defender B1 and hits B1 with an elbow across the bridge of the nose. Not a charge, but a PCF.

A1 hooks the defender to get around...

+1

thanks.

A1 drives to the basket & uses his off hand to create space.
Northside!

I was thinking this one too but then I read 4-7-2 d and then I was like whoa, that's a charge. Unless you're visualizing something else.

Is it a charge if it happens at the 3 point line? Halfcourt? Or just below the FT line extended?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the question...are you asking definitionally?

Mechanically, we're going PCF in all cases.

He means by rule.

By rule, I don't see a difference. Looks like they are all charges. I don't see anything in rule about location being of issue.

You're correct, going to & through the torso is p/c & so is using the hand to push the defenders torso to create space for a shot or pass.

At the end of the day, we use the same mechanic for a p/c or charge by the ball handler.

The player in possession can also be guilty of infractions under 4-24 in addition to it being a charge. It's an esoteric distinction really but I think you know that.

Illegal ball screen, hooking, push off,

??? What am I missing here? How can a charge NOT be a PC foul?

Pass and crash. Still a charge, not a player control foul.

Anytime a player goes through a legally positioned player's torso, the foul is one for charging. So for example, a defensive player running through a player in legal screening position.

Ah. That's a new distinction to me. That sounds to me like a run of the mill, pushing foul. I've never heard anyone say a defender was called for a charge.

I've seen some defenders run straight through a screen, no hands, just shoulder down almost football style.

Charge...and sometimes a short discussion about upgrading.

Rule 4, Section 7

ART. 2 . . . Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso.

Mmm hmm. By definition, a defender pushing through a screen is a charging foul. I'd hate to see the confusion from someone not signalling this a push, but rather using the hand behind the head associated with the commonly known charge.

A hand behind the head is for a player control foul ... not a charge. You use the "push" mechanic also for a charge.

Hand Behind the head is Player Control Foul. Push/Charge is two hands out, in a pushing motion.

That's the point. Hand behind head is what many consider a charging signal, not a player control signal.

As long as you don't :D

Many also believe other myths. Who cares? Do you allow that to effect what you call?

the distinction between a PCF and just a pushing foul matters why? Just in whether or not the foulee is shooting 1&1?

Those same people also scream for three seconds when the ball is bouncing on the rim after a shot.

Then they have not looked at the mechanics signals chart in the manual.

Knuckleheads ...
 

Don't you just love it?

Doesn't affect what I call at all. I was pointing out that incorrectly signaling a defensive "charge" with hand behind head signal could potentially confuse your partner, table crew, and/or coaches, let alone fans who are often confused anyhow.

And why would someone do that?

I can't imagine anyone would, but part of the discussion was the defiition of "charging", which does not specify that only the dribbler can "charge". Many associate the hand behind head signal with a charge rather than player control. I was pointing out what confusion could ensue if the push signal was not used for a defensive charge.

I think I'm confused now.

Many what? No official I know uses that signal for anything except PC.

It wasn't directed at officials. We all should know better. It was a theoretical after acknowledging that it isn't only a dribbler who can charge, given the rulebook definition of that term.

I know. My head hurts now.

There's no reason to use a PC signal for a defensive charging call.

There's no reason for any official to equate charging as an offense only foul.

As for signals, pushing or charging, the signal is the same. Signal #33.

It would also be confusing if the travel signal was used when the ball went out of bounds.:rolleyes:

Maybe this helps. If one looks at the table of Official NFHS Signals, one will discover the signals for a push and a charge are.................the same signal.

But what if one official signals a block and the other signals a player control foul, then what do we do?

A hot mess.

It's The Infamous Blarge ...
 

4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball.
Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter
A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the
other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.
RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it
is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul.
The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal
is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for
Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try
in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used. (4-36)

Or
 

Triple whistle for action at the freethrow line and halfway across the key - (not our finest example of 6 eyes on 10 players). Two fists and one open hand in the air - we all had something different. Can you guess what we went with? The winning call came out of the C position.

Thought the main point in this thread was that a charge and a player control foul are not the same thing.

Sometimes You Feel Like A Nut, Sometimes You Don't ...
 

Sometimes they are. Sometimes they're not.

Absolutely true. No one argues (do they) that the two are not necessarily the same.


So how do we possibly get from this




to this?


The question doesn't contain the word charge.
The case doesn't contain the words player control.

Let alone obligation based on signals which may or may not mean the same thing.

This is like seeing magnesium being dumped in a swimming pool.

For some

Since the Team Control signal was implemented, I haven't seen that used in a while (at least in these parts).......Not taking away from its being an approved signal, just don't see it anymore.

Blarge ....
 

Because it's a double foul. If the other official didn't call a block, then it would have been a player control foul.

Player Control Charging Foul ...
 

Many officials around here will use the team control foul signal, and only the team control foul signal, for a player control charging foul. By the manual, it's probably incorrect, but it seems to be an "accepted", but not "approved", alternative around here.

Player control and Team Control signals are the same behind-the-head signal in Ohio.

How Long Has This Been Going On ???
 

So, an offensive player, without the ball, sets an illegal screen, and the official comes up with a behind-the-head signal?

The way they want it is the normal foul signal then come down to the behind the head signal.

We assume by normal foul signal you mean a fist in the air. And you are instructed to use the hand behind the head for all fouls on the offense?

Yes. The PC signal is the TC signal in Ohio. The TC signal in the NFHS manual does not exist here.

When In Ohio ...
 

Thanks. I didn't know that Ohio was in The Matrix.

Wrong Metal ???
 

Did you mean to say Sodium, or Potassium?

When In Rome ...
 

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, the same guys that use the team control foul signal, and only the team control foul signal, for a player control charging foul, will also not usually precede this signal with a "stop the clock" fist.

This an exception mandated by the state, or your state publishes its own rule book?

It actually makes perfect sense. Why have two separate signals? So, in Ohio it doesn't matter whether he released the pass before the crash or not.

I have a tell
 

I actually do the same thing most of the time, if the call is obvious to me, though I know this is not totally correct. If I go up with the fist first, then go to the PC signal, it gives me time to mentally flip a coin.

Just a state mandate. They thought using the new signal would confuse people.

Aren't There Smart People In Ohio ???
 

I've never been to the Buckeye State, but I've got to believe that there are. Lots of them.

What people? Officials? Coaches? Players? Table? Fans? Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

How condescending.

Even though there's a difference in a team control and player control foul?????

That makes no sense at all.

That's kinda funny you say that because I was going to ask if any other associations have kind of done away with the PC signal. They encourage us to use the team control signal and punch it the other direction (defense's basket) if anyone on the offensive team fouls the defense, ball handler or team mate. I haven't once in two seasons used or seen used the PC signal. It is always the team control signal. Anybody else adopted that or find it strange?

We do the above the head fist to stop the clock and then punch the team control foul signal towards the defenses basket. Same with a charging ball handler.