Table Authority and 5th Foul
 

I was asked this question yesterday by a co-worker who attended a game the night before, now it has me thinking.


1. Player B1 commits a foul, official reports it, play resumes.
2. Team A throws the ball in, A1 scores a basket but while the ball is in flight, the table buzzes the horn.

Apparently the officials at that point stopped the game, confirmed the 5th foul on B1, B1 left the game, and the officials reset the action with Team A throwing the ball in from the original spot. Basket was not awarded.

My thinking is two-fold:

1. The table should not have buzzed the horn during the shot and should have waited until a dead ball, but it begs the question, "When does the table have authority to sound the horn and interrupt play?"

2. Secondly, based on how I read correctable errors, the basket should have counted. The DQ player would be removed and play would resume from the POI.

Finally, if the scenario continued on, how would you handle a sixth foul by Player B1 had he fouled on the play?

A couple of things first.

This is not a correctable error. This is a play referenced in the casebook and all points are legal. The horn being sounded may have no significance on the play unless if affects the players (they stop). The shot was in the air so the points certainly should have counted. Technically they could have stopped the game after that to inform the officials that a mistake had been made. It really would not matter in this situation unless the shot was missed.

If there was a 6th foul you treat it like any other foul, unless the player came back in after being DQ'd. You only can remove them when properly informed. If you do not know, we have to live with all the consequences like it was never their 5th foul.

Peace

Yes, table should have waited for a dead ball. But I would also accept (though may not be supported by rule) the table sounding the horn during a lull in action (ball being walked up court; team setting up a play; ball at disposal for throw-in or free throw).

You are right about how the play should have been handled. Basket good, remove DQ'd player, Team B with end-line throw-in.

If player would have received a 6th foul later there is no remedy. Just remove player and continue game.

1) When the ball is dead or at the disposal of or in control of team B.

2) It's not a CE. The rest of this statement is correct.

3) Count the 6th foul, get the player out, resume with the action resulting from the 6th foul (FTs or throw in). The player isn't DQd until the officials are notified, and if they're not notified until the 6th (or 7th...) foul, then whatever happened, happened.

The Horn doesn't make the ball dead, the whistle makes the ball dead. So if the officials blew their whistles while the ball was in flight, that was on the officiating crew. Secondly, they can't resume at POI by giving the ball to Team A because the POI was the ball in flight, so it goes AP arrow.

The officials should have waited until the result of the shot was completed, the scoretable can buzz the horn whenever they realize their mistake but it's up to us to recognize a good spot to actually make the ball dead. The ball in flight is probably the worst time.

The ball went through the basket so POI for this sitch is a endline throw-in for Team B.

Correct but from the OP it reads like the officials stopped play while ball was in flight before the ball went through the basket.

Then they decided to ignore the POI and just give the ball to Team A on a throw in, no points awarded.

So they should have either gone POI, AP throw in, before the ball went through the basket OR

As you suggest, after the ball went through the basket so endline throw-in for Team B.

They didn't do either.

What?

They should have:

Counted the basket, DQ'd B1, and resumed play at the POI (throw-in for Team B).

I agree. They should have.

But if the ball is dead by rule when the whistle blows and the whistle blew during the flight of the ball. You can't just ignore that fact.

So if I'm interpreting the OP correctly, we don't have a made basket, we have an AP throw in. The whistle sounded before the ball went through the goal.

Ah no, it doesn't.

The only time a whistle by an official causes the ball to be dead when a shot is in flight is when a PC foul occurs.

Even if the officials had blown the whistle instead of the horn sounding, the ball would still not have become dead.


You're not. Count the basket, give the ball to the opponent for a endline throw-in.

So when the whistle sounds for a foul while a shot is in flight you always wave off the made basket?

As Tony and BNR are saying...

Check out 6-7.

Agree with the correctable error part, I guess I should have stated that I didn't believe this was a correctable error so therefore anything that occurred should be counted.

Does anyone address with the table crew before game when they should use the horn to alert you? I would guess most players would stop playing when they heard the horn.

So everyone agrees the officials stopped the game during the flight of the ball?

And, everyone is saying, count the basket and POI is endline throw in? Am I reading everyone correctly?

I never have, it's so infrequent, I would think it would cause more problems than solve.

I've seen plenty of horns go off for substitutes when the ball is in play already and we just continue playing. I've also seen officials stop play and inbound the ball again and tell the substitute and the table they cannot sub right now.

I do sometimes tell table people to not use that horn for all kinds of things like substitutions or unless nothing is going on. And sometimes players stop and sometimes they don't. It really depends on what is going on and what action is taking place.

Peace

I don't know how we can make it any clearer.

Once a shot is in flight, only a whistle for a PC foul by an airborne shooter causes the ball to become dead. Otherwise, the shot is good if it goes.

It's no different that a whistle for a double foul while a shot is in flight.

EDIT: And for Scrapper, an elbow swinging violation while the ball is in flight, something I've never called or seen.

What if a member of the shooting team swings his/her elbows excessively to get rebounding space?

Yes you are. Violations against the team shooting the ball and PC fouls against an airborne shooter are the only things that would disallow the basket.

I think we know what you are saying, but a part of the earlier confusion was about what made the ball dead, the whistle or the horn. With that in mind, perhaps it should be pointed out that in this case, it is not the whistle which makes the ball dead, but the foul.

If you have an inadvertent whistle during a shot by A (ball in flight), your POI will depend upon whether the shot goes in.

If it goes in, B gets the ball for an end line throw-in. If it does not, you go with the arrow.

Same with double fouls that occur while a ball is in flight.

Normally, with a sub situation and the horn goes off, I verbally tell the players to play on. If I have to blow my whistle (because players have stopped playing), I will allow the subs. There's no basis for not allowing the subs once you blow your whistle.

*Shame on that table crew for not informing their officials on the floor that a kid has thier 5'th foul. :mad: :mad: :mad:

*Secondly-around here officials will tell us their preferences on horn use with subs.Some like it and others don't.A vast majority do like it.

That's the part I was missing, Thanks.

I wasn't addressing just the OP. I was addressing Toren's earlier reply, pasted below. He was of the opinion that a whistle causes a shot in flight to become dead.

I once had a game where I both announced the 5th foul overhead and showed five fingers to the calling official, and he still didn't disqualify the player. When there was finally a point for me to tell the crew again about the 5th foul, the official told me I needed to tell them sooner. :(

Whether it's their preference or not, in this case I suggest big-time use of the horn.

Bob, why would this not be a correctable error? The officials erroneously cancelled the score by inadvertently setting aside 2.11.3 "if the scorer signals while the ball is live the official should ignore the signal if a scoring play is in progress." If Coach A had the where-withall to ask to discuss the situation within the time frame and the officials realized their mistake, couldn't they award the points?

It was an error, and it was correctable, but it wasn't YET a CE. ;)

If the question was ... "then, at the next dead ball, the table buzzed and asked about the goal..." we'd have a CE.

The key is that the horn does not stop the game, the whistle/officials stop the game.

If the player is allowed to continue to play due to a book-keeping error you disqualify the player when notified. The basket would score in this case.