They're kidding me, right? Ugh. :(

Gotta be a mistake. Surely they changed the call! :)

Care to enlighten those of us who couldn't stay awake to see the Lakers game? It's just as well that I went to sleep and missed the end of the Celtics game. Yeesh!

They called a "charge" on Shaq.Slappy was amazed 'cause the big guy is usually allowed to run over people in the paint.I think that it's in the NBA rulebook somewhere that he's allowed to do that,so I was kinda surprised too.

I was very surprised that Shaq got a charge on that play, in terms of contact & the defender's positioning it seemed weak to me at best, at least from my seat 15 ft from my TV.

The defender's feet were set. He was outside the arc. Shaq
ran right over him and put him flat on his back....

"I was very surprised that Shaq got a charge on that play.."

Me too! Shaq is allowed to do that 99% of the time.

Shaq is allowed 10X that 99% of the time! :)

"I was very surprised that Shaq got a charge on that play.."

Me too! Shaq is allowed to do that 99% of the time. [/B][/QUOTE]

Shaq is allowed 10X that 99% of the time! :) [/B][/QUOTE]


"Shaq is the hardest player in history to officiate."

Translation: "If we called half of everything on Shaq he'd never play past the first half, and we'd lose the biggest draw in the game."

Shaq is allowed 10X that 99% of the time! :) [/B][/QUOTE]


"Shaq is the hardest player in history to officiate."

Translation: "If we called half of everything on Shaq he'd never play past the first half, and we'd lose the biggest draw in the game." [/B][/QUOTE]

I will agree that Shaq gets away with alot (as do many other centers and other stars in the NBA). I would also argue that it goes both ways with Shaq, to be perfectly fair. He is so large that, in order to contain him, many teams use a lot of what would be blatantly illegal contact against anybody else and don't get called for it using it against Shaq.

I don't envy anybody trying to officiate when there is a player of that extraordinary size on the court.

"I would also argue that it goes both ways with Shaq, to be perfectly fair."

I agree, but I'd say Shaq leads the NBA in elbows/shoulders/forearms to the face of a defender
and no call, OR (and this happens a lot with Shaq) the
defender is called for hitting Shaq's elbow
with their face ;-(.... OUCH!


"I don't envy anybody trying to officiate when there is a player of that extraordinary size on the court."

Point taken.



"Shaq is the hardest player in history to officiate."

Translation: "If we called half of everything on Shaq he'd never play past the first half, and we'd lose the biggest draw in the game." [/B][/QUOTE]

I will agree that Shaq gets away with alot (as do many other centers and other stars in the NBA). I would also argue that it goes both ways with Shaq, to be perfectly fair. He is so large that, in order to contain him, many teams use a lot of what would be blatantly illegal contact against anybody else and don't get called for it using it against Shaq.

I don't envy anybody trying to officiate when there is a player of that extraordinary size on the court. [/B][/QUOTE]

The problem is that they officiate to the "player" and not the "play" in the NBA. It's the same as Patrick Ewing taking his 4/5 steps every time he came across the key,Reggie Miller not knowing or caring what a pivot foot is,or Alan Iverson palming the ball on every dribble-etc.,etc.,etc. Entertainment,not rules,rulz!

Both of these points are irrelevant. You don't have to have your feet set to take a charge. And in the NBA, the primary defender (Shaq's man) can be on or inside the arc and be fouled. It's the secondary defender (the help defender) that must be outside the arc.

Great points
 

PA Coach - You are comletely correct on both points regarding the PC foul rule.

JR - I will concede that an element of entertainment enters into the officiating in the NBA (i.e., they don't want to blow a violation every time down the court, they don't want to oful out the stars if possible). However, I think that oversimplifies the problem of officiating play involving players of Shaq's size.

I know your feet don't *have* to be set, but they were anyway...and it was the secondary defender on this play.

With a secondary defender, the arc is defintely relevant and the feet almost always will need to be set. It is hard to imagine circumstances where the secondary defender can draw a PC foul without getting set in the offensive player's line of movement first. Feet moving on a PC is something that occurs when you are on the ball, not off the ball.

Shooter clears out with the off-arm. Easy PC.

Could happen, but the clear-out usually only happens to the on-ball defender. Off-ball, you rarely see this happen without the off-ball defender initiating some contact first, and that will usually be what is called.

Not sure why you draw that generalization, Coach. A clear-out is just as likely on a secondary defender, if the primary defender has been left in the dust. Anybody who is in the way is a possible target for a clear-out. Doesn't have to be the primary defender.

By "on-ball defender", I'm assuming you mean primary defender? Any defender who's close enough to be on the receiving end of a clear-out is "on-ball", even if he/she is not the primary defender.

Chuck

"Off-ball, you rarely see this happen..."

Remember, we started talking about Shaq. There are
often second and third defenders helping out and
"getting to the spot" (or not) before one of Shaq's hambones. Indeed, that is exactly the original call in question: Hudson (helping) was bowled over by Shaq.
Shaq may have been leading a bit with his left arm.

did not see the play, but
 

How I am reading this is you had a primary defender, and Shaq drove toward a secondary defender who was in his line of movement and stationed outside the arc. In this and other similar (arc and non-arc) situations, if the defender is moving you will have a block, if the defender is stationary you should have a charge. And you won't normally see a clear out action.

If you are referring to switching defenders as one defender gets beaten, I don't know how the NBA looks at it but I consider the new guy to be the new primary defender if he picks up ball and is moving with the ball handler. The original defender is ancient history. So that's where I was coming from.

Re: did not see the play, but
 

Re: did not see the play, but
 

As I recall seeing the play Shaq was towards the left side low post with the ball and 1 defender. Shaq spun in towards the paint (to his right) & put the ball up. Arc was not a consideration - 1 on 1. The defender had obviously established legal guarding position. There was almost no contact that I could see on the shot (might have been an earlier clearout on the spin I missed though, who knows). It was Shaq's second early in the game so he went & took a break.

I would love to see the play again. Anyone else see it?

I didn't see it either, but
 

Coach, as I said earlier, I didn't see the play, so I'm not even commenting on Shaq. I was only commenting on your statement that it's hard to imagine how a secondary defender could draw a PC without being stationary. If the secondary defender (or any defender) takes a forearm in the chest, it's a PC. Not that hard to imagine, that's all I was saying.

Normally, that's what you will see, but as you know, being stationary is not necessary for drawing the PC. That's the most obvious way to draw it, but not the only way.

In fact, at higher levels, the officials I think are much more concerned with where the contact occured, rather than what the defender's feet are doing. If the contact is square on the defender's torso, it's very likely a PC, even if he is moving. If the defender is standing fairly vertical and gets hit on the chest, then it's almost impossible to see how somebody could say that he didn't get there first.

Drake or Eli will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that if KG blows by Kobe and then Shaq rotates to pick him up on D, Shaq is still the secondary defender. Shaq is the "help" defense. I don't think that losing your defender means you get a new primary defender, at least for RA purposes. I could be wrong, tho.

Chuck

Re: Re: did not see the play, but
 

>As I recall seeing the play Shaq was towards the left side low post with the ball and 1 defender.

Right so far.

>Shaq spun in towards the paint (to his right) & put the ball up.

Shaq's back was to the hoop/paint, he wheeled to his left and into the paint where Hudson (Minn point guard, 2ND defender) had established legal guarding position outside the arc.

>Arc was not a consideration - 1 on 1.

Hudson is small....maybe you didn't see him?


>The defender had obviously established legal guarding position. There was almost no contact that I could see on the shot (might have been an earlier clearout on the spin I missed though, who knows).

You are right, there was little contact with the primary
defender, but Shaq leveled Hudson.... no flop there, Hudson
giving away 200 lbs.


>It was Shaq's second early in the game so he went & took a break.

Yup, that's the one.

Re: Re: Re: did not see the play, but
 

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm...now I would really love to see the play again, we saw everything the same except I don't recall Hudson getting squashed, I didn't even see him. (Now you know why I get all the BIG games! :D )

It must be true! Shaq is the hardest player in the world to officiate! Look how many posts one play created. :)

And only 2 of us saw the damn play, but even we can't agree on what we saw!!! :eek:

Ever see the movie Roshoman? Four people see the exact same
thing, but all have very different stories....