When the pregame doesnt carry over to the game
 

So... you pregamed that the train wreck in the paint with multiple bodies on the floor requires a whistle NOT the "get up" signal. Whether the call is right or wrong, we must make a call!

Play comes from the Cs side, wreck, no whistle. We talk about it on the next t/o & agree that a whistle was needed there.

Next time it happens in transition... again, no whistle.

I'm T on both plays, the 2nd one I hadnt made it to halfcourt yet. Do you all come with a late whistle from T to clean it up even though you had the 3rd best look? Or do you "let em live & die" with an incorrect no-call?

You have two partners in better position...who have primary responsibility for the paint. It is not your call.

If they didn't know what to call from their view, what are you going to do with your "third best look?"

I would certainly discuss it with them...but in the locker room. I also don't agree with your pregame: "Whether the call is right or wrong, make a call."

What BayStateRef said. Probably shouldn't have pregamed that a call MUST be made, because you're not willing to come in as T and make the call.

Either be committed to what was talked about in pregame, or speak up during pregame if there's something you're not comfortable with or willing to do during the game.

Probably, the discussion should have been C or L "must" make a call with a trainwreck in the paint. There are some situations where even selling a call the best you can won't make any call look great from the T position.

Exactly what I did, pass. Unfortunately I was tableside on both...

Why should I have to come from the T? I do believe that a call must be made in those situations! By the covering official(s) though. I'll add that piece to my pregame.

I did what was discussed in pregame, it just so happens that those particular plays didnt involve me.

I disagree, the T should stay engaged if the play comes from the T & they certainly can have a whistle as they had the SDF of the play.

Now if we're talking about the flat-foot, stuck in the mud, hugging the division line T, you sir, are absolutely correct :D

Because you pregamed that a call MUST be made. You didn't pregame that the C or L must make a call, you pregamed that a call must be made by SOMEONE. All three of you kicked the call based on your pregame, because none of you blew your whistle. You're no less at fault than the C or L.

I just don't like the idea of absolving yourself of responsibility when you agreed in the pregame to someone picking up the call in that situation. You three are a team, and you should all live and die with every call equally based on how you pregame it. It's no one's fault. It's everyone's fault.

Okaaaay
1. I didnt know the 6 year guy had to break down who that "someone" is for the 14 & 30+ year guys. I kinda tailor my pregames to my partners experience level.

2. Never blamed anyone, just trying to figure out which of the posters here would "come n get it."

3. If I say lets be prepared to adjudicate on GT & BI, do I have to say the C & T or is that common knowledge??

You're correct & WE, by far, were the best team on the court (other than those 2 plays) in the 47-44 ballgame where the last second shot came up just short.

I had to go back & read what I wrote! Again, I never tried to absolve myself from anything. As the crew chief on the game, I had to write the game report. Taking responsibility there, plus looking for and finding (thanks to you) a better way to word that particular part of my pregame the morning after is quite accountable.

What was your partners' take? Did you have a post game?

I don't really understand what you're getting at. You threw out a lot of numbers and letters there that I didn't follow.

You said (paraphrased): We pregamed that we MUST have a call on a trainwreck in the paint. We had a trainwreck in the paint. No one blew their whistle. Should I have, even though I was trailing the play?

My answer is yes.

You replied by saying Why should I have to call from T?

My answer: Because that's what you pregamed.


If you don't like my answer, fine, but you asked for people's opinion. When you don't get the answer you want makes me think perhaps you shouldn't have asked the question in the first place.

Well, you know what happens when you assume.

I always pregame last shot. And when I pregame last shot, I make sure to mention that T has good/no good on last shot and L has to help out on contact (2-man). Yes, I mention the positions specifically.

Better to be specific and get it right than be general and assume everyone knows what you're talking about.

I would say no do not come in and get it from the 3rd best look. I would also say in the t/o that you shouldn't have discussed what should have happened, or perhaps just quickly, but reiterate that it cannot happen again.

Good thing this is early season and we can work and fix the things we would want fixed before the games become even more important.

Yes we had post-game & I also told them I would mail them a copy of the film.
Each of them just said they wish they could get those plays back... no biggie! We spoke like men & moved on. As a matter of fact I didnt even have to bring it up, which is always nice.

Come on fiasco, should an official in their 6th season have to explain who the calling official(s) are on block/charge plays in the paint when it comes from the Cs side to partners that are in their 14th & 30+ seasons :rolleyes:

I didnt ask anyone here for personal advice regarding this play, this is what I asked:

Not that I dont like your answer (as if it means anything to me & where I work) I dont like you changing my questions. How bout that?

Do you talk about where to stand on t/o too :eek:
Around these parts, you dont come with an elementary pregame with savvy vets. If you dont know who has the last second shot at this level, then you shouldn't be out there! If you dont know who makes GT/BI calls, then you shouldn't be out there! If you dont know who makes block/charge calls in the paint from the Cs side...
When facilitating the pregame with guys that are respected vets & we've all worked together previously, we talk about plays & how we are going to deal with them.

Again, I'm not asking for anyones advice on what tref should or shouldn't have done. The question began with, "do you" NOT "what should I have done."
Hell, I barely apply unsolicited advice from the people I see face-to-face (unless they've hired me) so why am I asking people over the internet that I have never seen work.

FTR, the t/o came like 3 minutes after the no-call & I like to adjust on the fly when applicable. Now if the coach got a t/o right after that play, yes, no conference because everyone knows exactly what we're talking about.

I see the problem, tref. You are arguing with fiasco.

Let me rephrase :)

I do not come on as the T with the 3rd best look as I feel I compound the problem and then it also looks like I didn't trust my partners (which lets face it, that's exactly what my whistle is saying).

Especially in transition, they are livin n dying with their no calls.

Toren I can dig it!

I just hope when it happens to you that you're opposite table. I had to hear IT from both coaches on our way to the other end. I just ran really fast to the endline :D
I thought it would be a poor decision to whack either one as I agreed with their thoughts.


26 Year Gap: Point taken :D

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Which is the lesser of two evils:

• Doing nothing and getting an earful from the coaches - one of which will love you and the other will rip you a new one for calling something you had the worst look at of the three of you
• Blowing it from 30 feet away when you had the worst look at it and there are two other guys right in front of it

You're going to catch hell either way. Personally, I am leaving it alone when the two guys right in front of the play have passed on it.

The real problem is making up absolutes like this -- bodies on the floor don't *always* mean there's a foul. Many times, sure...

Assuming there was one, I'm not coming in here. A single crash in the lane isn't the elephant on the court where I feel I have to save the day from the backcourt.

Example please? Remember I'm talking block/charge plays to the rack not clumsy players tripping over each others feet.

I see this all the time... Play to the lane minimal contact and the defense falls (and groans) as if he has been hit by a wrecking ball. One coach wants a block, the other wants a charge, but I have a no call.

+1.

I always grin and laugh on the inside when I hear an official say this.

Gotcha, only thing is both players hit the deck...

deecee: Glad I could provide you with a laugh, but I have yet to hear/see an example when both players go down & a no call is the correct call. Please share.

Hey, try this one out next time. "If bodies go to the floor let make sure we know how they got there."

Saying that if both players go down YOU MUST have a call, RIGHT or WRONG, is about as stupid a statement as one can make. I should know, I make stupid statements all the time.

There are times when contact is minimal and the defense flops and the offense might just land awkward, or trip or even try and flop themselves. If you and I were doing a game and you make that statement I would tell you that if you are going to blow a whistle based solely on some hypothetical absolute and fabricate a call, that may or may not exist, I would tell you that don't be prepared for me to defend you to the coaches.

Now if you tell me that in instances where we have multiple bodies hitting the ground we should make sure that we get a good look and if the contact appears severe that we not set a precedent and pass on this play, that's something else. But saying we must always have a foul called when multiple bodies hit the ground only lets me know that you must have been to a couple camps this summer and heard a few counselors and vets say this and you implied it to be an absolute.

Contact that I just described often will end up with the offensive player stumbling and sometime sprawling on the floor.
Both players on the floor is not always a foul.

+1
Heard this a few times and this is a great way to put it.

There's a LOT of difference between "A whistle was needed there," and "We must have a whistle," on any hypothetical play.

A whistle from the backcourt on a play in the paint in front of two partners is going to hurt your credibility as a crew more than getting one call right is going to help it.

jmo

I like this approach MUCH better.

I do not agree with "we MUST have a whistle" just because of the way a play looks.

One of my pet peeves is when coaches/fans say, "that's gotta be something." Yes it does have to be something, it's called basketball. It's a contact sport and sometimes contact occurs that is not a foul, on a some occasions even when players end up on the floor, as mentioned earlier.

If you know how players got the ground you can explain a no call in situations like this. A whistle for the sake of having one in this instance is poor officiating IMO.

Just to repeat
 

In the state I work officials have been explicitly told there has to be a call made on a play like this, either block, charge or T. The head of officials in my state told people that at multiple state meetings across the state. He did not say it on the online presentation he made, however.

So in my state it is possible for a T to make this call if the others walked off on it, and the evaluator would not mark the T down for doing it. :eek: :(

After this statement is made, do you make the call or not in my state?

I do what I'm told. I probably, if asked by a coach, would say "Hey, I'm told by the state we have to have a foul there. Please take it up with them." In your state. I don't have to operate under such restrictions.

I frequently see minimal contact, a defender embellishing, and an offensive player stumbling over the defender. It's not a PC foul, it's not a block, it's not a travel -- it's two players going down for no good reason.

I'll see people making stuff up -- most often a travel (the perfect bail out call, I guess) or a block. I prefer to take every play at face value.

The primary point the powers that be are making here is that there are too many of these plays that don't get a whistle that should. There are always a few that shouldn't be whistled, but they want fewer passes.

Agreed. They also don't want the games to escalate to overly physical and to the point that players are mad and fights start.

I do the same.

Peace

That is the phrase I use. I prefer to know why I am not calling something rather than guess and make a call that did not take place.

Peace

+1 Rich
 

I totally agree with your quote. In some places however, officials are being given less 'gray' to work in, and more 'black and white' to do, which concerns me.