Game Play Situation

[crew]

i havent been on here in a while, so please forgive me if this situation has been dead and burried.

ok, 2.2 on the game clock, 4th quarter, 2 point game. team blue down by 2 and inbounding on the baseline going the length of the court. you are the slot official @ approximately midcourt. as the team throws the ball in the game clock starts prematurely well before(.5 sec) being touched inbounds. you notice the clock mishap immediately, but the ball has already been released by the inbounder. what would you do?

[BktBallRef]

The clock has been inproperly started. You blow your whistle, reset the clock and run the play again.

[deinert]

According to the comment in the case book to rule 5.10.1 there is a reaction/lag time to take into consideration with this situation. My interpation is that if there is less than 1 second difference with the clock and play you leave it alone.

Now this comment might only refer to calls made by an official and the lag time after making the call and then getting the clock stopped.

Just a note to consider.

[DrakeM]

.5 is enough time to win a game given the right circumstances. Put the time back on.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by deinert
According to the comment in the case book to rule 5.10.1 there is a reaction/lag time to take into consideration with this situation. My interpation is that if there is less than 1 second difference with the clock and play you leave it alone.

Now this comment might only refer to calls made by an official and the lag time after making the call and then getting the clock stopped.

Just a note to consider.

"Lag time" is only used in situations where the clock is being stopped.It is not applicable or germane in a case like this,where the clock is started improperly. I assume that you were referring to casebook play 5.10.1SitB-Comment.As I said,that play only refers to the clock stopping.The principle that you want is contained in the play above it-casebook play 5.10.1SitA- "the referee may correct the mistake only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved".In this particular sitch,the referee knew that 0.5 seconds came off improperly,so he/she can(and should) put that 0.5 seconds back on the clock.

Btw,welcome to the Forum.

[eroe39]

I let the play happen and then decide what to do with the clock after the play has ended. If you kill the play early then you can really cause problems and end up giving the offensive team another chance to win the game. For example:
1. Defense intercepts the pass.
2. Pass is poorly thrown and goes out of bounds untouched.
3. Pass is caught by offensive team and they shoot before the horn and miss.
4. Pass is tipped around and rolls around loose for over 2.2 seconds.
5. Pass is caught and shooter releases the ball before the horn and it goes in.
In all the above situations you can get away with this great and nobody says a word and the team that should win will win. For example in 3 and 4 you declare game over and in 5 you go into overtime and in 2 you reset clock to 2.2 and give defensive team the ball and in 1 you could handle it in multiple ways.
The only situation that can hurt you is if the offensive player catches it and the horn sounds before he releases the ball and it goes in. That is a lot of ifs to happen considering all the other options that could occur. And even if this one scenario does happen then you could get the coaches together and do a do over and neither coach could say much. Because the coach of the team that scored is just glad he is getting another chance even though his player did not release the ball before the horn and if he is mad it would be at the table and not at you. And the coach of the defensive team is glad that the clock screwed up and is happy that he hasn't already lost the game.
Of course, most people know about the 72 Olympics where because of a clock malfuntion the Soviets won the gold medal over the U.S. The situation was similar. They threw the ball in and it was intercepted but because of a clock malfunction they got another chance. They then threw the ball in and their player missed the shot but again because of a clock malfuntion they got another chance. They threw it in again and this time they scored so the wrong team won. I say do what is right and fair for the game and use common sense and don't give the offensive team multiple chances to win a game. ESPN would have a field day with this handling of a game in today's times.
In my opinion the situation is similar to how we handle shot clock mistakes. When the shot clock is erroneously reset or not reset then we just don't kill it immediately we use common sense to see if the defense is about to steal the ball or to see if the offensive team is about to drive or shoot. We use common sense and a lot of times we are able to get away with doing nothing and everything works out, let's do the same here and play the percentages, which are highly in our favor.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by eroe39
I let the play happen and then decide what to do with the clock after the play has ended. If you kill the play early then you can really cause problems and end up giving the offensive team another chance to win the game.



The only situation that can hurt you is if the offensive player catches it and the horn sounds before he releases the ball and it goes in.

Exactly! This is the scenario that is most likely to happen. You're going to get into a helluva a lot more trouble if this happens and you have to give the offense another shot at it.

Stop the clock and you're back up by the rules. It's the only right thing to do. Letting the play run because of what might happen is playing with fire. Correct the mistake and don't play the "what if" game.

[crew]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Exactly! This is the scenario that is most likely to happen. You're going to get into a helluva a lot more trouble if this happens and you have to give the offense another shot at it.

Stop the clock and you're back up by the rules. It's the only right thing to do. Letting the play run because of what might happen is playing with fire. Correct the mistake and don't play the "what if" game.

i think the play mentioned above(where offense does make the shot) is the most unlikely situation to occur. the odds are stacked against any team that tries last second heroics, tho it does happen........rarely. as eli said the best example is the '72 olympics. if the refs had just stepped back and looked at the BIG PICTURE they would have realized that the clock error had no impact on the outcome of the game. i feel it is best to let the play develope and if there is a need to step in(in the most unlikely of situations) then do it, handle it quickly and confidently. otherwise there is no need to do any thing but let the period end.

tony

[BktBallRef]

Follow the rules and you won't be led astray.

[crew]

huh?

[DrakeM]

The '72 Olympics was less about the "big picture" and more about Cold war politics. They didn't give a rat's a** about getting it right, only in the USSR winning.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by crew
huh?

You can't ignore a situation and "hope" that everything turns out alright. Follow the rules!

2-5-5
The referee shall:
Decide matters upon which the timers and scorers disagree and correct obvious timing errors.

Addressing previous points-

#1 - A shot clock sitation where the clock may or may not get reset correctly is not the same as a situation where there's a shot at the end of the game which is affected by whether the clock properly starts or not.

#2 - Drake is correct. The '72 Olympic game was about politics, not basketball. Further, the game officials did not make the decision that led to the Soviets getting 3 shots at the play. That decision was made by their supervisor, who came out of the stands and made the timer put time back on the clock.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Apr 29th, 2003 at 09:09 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by crew
i think the play mentioned above(where offense does make the shot) is the most unlikely situation to occur.

tony, i agree with you that making the last second desparation heave is the least likely outcome. However, it's the one that, if it does happen, is going to cause you the greatest amount of grief.

So I think I would also side with TH on this and say that I would stop the play as soon as I know that the clock has not started properly. Just my two cents.

On a personal note, good to see you posting. I was just down in Orlando, but didn't have much time for socializing. I thought about giving you a call and trying to work a game together, but just didn't have the time. Sorry!

Chuck

[crew]

tho, i disagree, i see your point. i do not think it is the best route. just my thoughts.

[Hawks Coach]

I saw too many big plays at the end of NCAA games in the past few years to think that the last second shot is an impossibility. If you get the ball to the front court or close on the first pass, you can use that full 2.2 and get a high quality shot. And good teams do this. It is likely that a well coached team will not shoot the ball until they have to in this sitch, because you build plays around clock time remaining (a 5 seconds left play will be different than a 2 seconds left play).

If you let this play go, they either force an early shot due to seeing the clock erroneously run down, or they get the ball to the shooting position 1.5 seconds after touching it inbounds only to have the horn blow and negate the entire play, which the opponent has now seen. Stop play as soon as you see it.