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Dave9819 Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:06am

Pass hitting player and going through basket
 
Hello,

I was thinking of a few different scenarios and needed some opinions on the correct ruling.

1. Team A has the ball for a throw-in at the division line. (a) A1 throws the ball in and it hits off of A1 who is behind the 3pt. line and goes through the basket. (b) A1 throws the ball in and it his off of B1 who is behind the 3pt line and the ball goes in. Do we have a 3pt goal in both cases?

What if time expires after it hits off of A1 or B1 but before it goes through the basket?

Does any of this change if this is a pass from A1 who is dribbling the ball in-bounds at the division line?

What would be the ruling if A1 attempts a 3-point shot, but the shot is short and B1 accidently tips the ball in (after the try or tap for goal is judged to be unsuccessful, so we would not have any Basket Interference or Goal Tending)? Would it be a 2pt or 3pt goal? I believe it should be a 3pt. goal.

Thanks!

JRutledge Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
Hello,

I was thinking of a few different scenarios and needed some opinions on the correct ruling.

1. Team A has the ball for a throw-in at the division line. (a) A1 throws the ball in and it hits off of A1 who is behind the 3pt. line and goes through the basket. (b) A1 throws the ball in and it his off of B1 who is behind the 3pt line and the ball goes in. Do we have a 3pt goal in both cases?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
What if time expires after it hits off of A1 or B1 but before it goes through the basket?

No, they are not shots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
Does any of this change if this is a pass from A1 who is dribbling the ball in-bounds at the division line?

No, they would still be 2 point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
What would be the ruling if A1 attempts a 3-point shot, but the shot is short and B1 accidently tips the ball in (after the try or tap for goal is judged to be unsuccessful, so we would not have any Basket Interference or Goal Tending)? Would it be a 2pt or 3pt goal? I believe it should be a 3pt. goal.

Thanks!

You would have 3 point shot because touching the ball by the defense does not change the status of the shot and where it was taken from.

Peace

just another ref Fri Dec 02, 2011 01:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
What would be the ruling if A1 attempts a 3-point shot, but the shot is short and B1 accidently tips the ball in (after the try or tap for goal is judged to be unsuccessful, so we would not have any Basket Interference or Goal Tending)? Would it be a 2pt or 3pt goal? I believe it should be a 3pt. goal.

Thanks!

The try ends when it is certain that it was unsuccessful. If B1 knocks it in after that, it counts 2.

JugglingReferee Fri Dec 02, 2011 07:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
Hello,

I was thinking of a few different scenarios and needed some opinions on the correct ruling.

1. Team A has the ball for a throw-in at the division line. (a) A1 throws the ball in and it hits off of A2 who is behind the 3pt. line and goes through the basket. (b) A1 throws the ball in and it his off of B1 who is behind the 3pt line and the ball goes in. Do we have a 3pt goal in both cases?

(a) 3 points since A2 touched the ball beyond the arc.

(b) 3 points since B1 touched the ball beyond the arc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
What if time expires after it hits off of A1 or B1 but before it goes through the basket?

Since neither is a try for goal, the ball becomes dead upon the buzzer sounding and no goal is counted because a live ball did not go through the basket.

Only when a player who has attempted a try for goal does the attempt extend to beyond the buzzer, and it extends until the try is good or until the try is clearly unsuccessful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
Does any of this change if this is a pass from A1 who is dribbling the ball in-bounds at the division line?

No - all rulings remain the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
What would be the ruling if A1 attempts a 3-point shot, but the shot is short and B1 accidently tips the ball in (after the try or tap for goal is judged to be unsuccessful, so we would not have any Basket Interference or Goal Tending)? Would it be a 2pt or 3pt goal? I believe it should be a 3pt. goal.

Count 2 points. Once the attempt is judged to be unsuccessful, the try is over {4-41}, and so does the ability to score 3 points without a new try for goal behind the arc. So when B1 tipped the ball, all that occurred is a live ball went through the basket - score 2 points.

mbyron Fri Dec 02, 2011 07:14am

5.2.1 SITUATION C answers all of your questions concerning the location of the last player to touch the ball.

You might also review 4-41, which defines a try. To answer your question about end-of-period scoring, you need to know whether your cases involve a try.

Hope that helps!

mbyron Fri Dec 02, 2011 07:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 801243)
(a) 2 points. A2's attempt is not a try for goal. What happened is a live ball went through the basket - score 2 points.

You need to review 5.2.1 SITUATION C, too. :p

JugglingReferee Fri Dec 02, 2011 07:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801246)
You need to review 5.2.1 SITUATION C, too. :p

Yes, I was just looking that up. I'll edit. Behind in football means "not yet reached", but in basketball, means "has reached". I get em mixed up at times. Grrr...

PG_Ref Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801246)
You need to review 5.2.1 SITUATION C, too. :p

Seems like the RULING for case play 5.2.1 Sit B gives a clearer explanation for this play.

Camron Rust Fri Dec 02, 2011 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 801243)
(b) 3 points since B1 touched the ball beyond the arc.

Disagree. The implied condition for the ruling you're using to make this conclusion is that the thrown ball is inbounds already...not a throw in.

In no possible way could a throwin be a 3-point try so B1 touching it only makes it legal for it to enter the basket...it doesn't make it a 3.

In part (a), I suppose you might get a 3 out of that but not because it was a thrown ball....it was a throwin. It couldn't have been 3 to start with. Only if you judge that A1 was tapping the ball for a 3 would it be 3, not just tipped/touched.

This rule, for a ball thrown from outside the 3-point arc that enters the basket was only intended to remove the necessary judgment of whether it was a try or not when there was a question of whether it was a try or not. A throwin was never in doubt. For that matter, the position of the throwin is neither inside of nor outside of the 3-point arc....It is OOB.

Camron Rust Fri Dec 02, 2011 01:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave9819 (Post 801196)
What would be the ruling if A1 attempts a 3-point shot, but the shot is short and B1 accidently tips the ball in (after the try or tap for goal is judged to be unsuccessful, so we would not have any Basket Interference or Goal Tending)? Would it be a 2pt or 3pt goal? I believe it should be a 3pt. goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 801199)
No.
You would have 3 point shot because touching the ball by the defense does not change the status of the shot and where it was taken from.

Once the ball is below the rim or will clearly miss, the try (or defacto try) is over. 2 points if B (or A) then tips the ball in.

See...

4.41.4 SITUATION B: A1’s three-point try is short and below ring level when it
hits the shoulder of: (a) A2; or (b) B1 and rebounds to the backboard and through
the basket. RULING: The three-point try ended when it was obviously short and
below the ring. However, since a live ball went through the basket, two points are
scored in both (a) and (b). (5-1)

berserkBBK Fri Dec 02, 2011 01:46pm

Kind of like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=XM4XmCiuX64

mbyron Fri Dec 02, 2011 02:59pm

3 points? Don't shoot!
 
Apparently if you attempt a 3-point try, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 2 points. 4.41.4C

If you throw a pass to a teammate from behind the arc, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 3 points. 5.2.1C(b)

Weird.

JRutledge Fri Dec 02, 2011 03:03pm

Why is this weird. One you are clearly throwing at the basket and it happens to go in the basket. The other it is clear you were not even trying to score and the ball happens to go in the basket. The rule is in place because players would try and Ally-Opp on some level and the ball would go in the basket inadvertently. They wanted to take this out of the hands of the officials to determine the intent of the passer/shooter.

Peace

just another ref Fri Dec 02, 2011 03:12pm

There is no 4.41.4c

Camron Rust Fri Dec 02, 2011 03:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by just another ref (Post 801359)
There is no 4.41.4c

He meant 4.41.4B...as I cited just before his post.

Camron Rust Fri Dec 02, 2011 04:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801354)
Apparently if you attempt a 3-point try, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 2 points. 4.41.4C

If you throw a pass to a teammate from behind the arc, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 3 points. 5.2.1C(b)

Weird.

You're missapplying 5.2.1C(b).

Note that it is under a section titled "THREE-POINT TRY"

It is making the point that if A or B tips the shot (just out of the shooters hand), it will still be 3 whether B is in the 3-point area or in the 2-point area (usually feet on the line) but if it touches A in the 2-point area, it becomes a 2.

It never was intended for the situation you pose...where the try or virtual try is ALWAYS over when the ball passes below the level of the ring or ever passes above the ring.

Only 4.41.4C is relevant at that point....a ball that bounces off a player's head/shoulder is a 2 and it is not a try.

Dave9819 Fri Dec 02, 2011 05:33pm

So if A1 is inbounding and their inbounds pass hits off of A2 or B2 who are standing outside the 3pt. line, would it be a 2pt or 3pt?

JugglingReferee Fri Dec 02, 2011 06:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave9819 (Post 801394)
so if a1 is inbounding and their inbounds pass hits off of a2 or b2 who are standing outside the 3pt. Line, would it be a 2pt or 3pt?

2

mbyron Sat Dec 03, 2011 07:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801373)
You're misapplying 5.2.1C(b).

Note that it is under a section titled "THREE-POINT TRY"

The heading is editorial and irrelevant, as Situation B makes clear (it concerns a thrown ball that is NOT a try). The governing rule is 5-2-1, which states:
"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points."

Moreover, the wording of Situation C is distinctive: "A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line."

That's different from Situation A ("A1 attempts a three-point goal.") and is more like Situation B Ruling ("A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the
three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an
actual try for goal.").

It's clear that Situations B and C concern thrown balls that are NOT tries, and my original puzzle remains.

billyu2 Sat Dec 03, 2011 07:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801549)
The heading is editorial and irrelevant, as Situation B makes clear (it concerns a thrown ball that is NOT a try). The governing rule is 5-2-1, which states:
"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points."

Moreover, the wording of Situation C is distinctive: "A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line."

That's different from Situation A ("A1 attempts a three-point goal.") and is more like Situation B Ruling ("A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the
three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an
actual try for goal.").

It's clear that Situations B and C concern thrown balls that are NOT tries, and my original puzzle remains.

Disagree. I think Camron has it right. The actual definition of a try specifically describes shooting as "throwing" which is obviously a poor choice of a word. Even though a pass or try that is "thrown" from behind the arc and goes in counts as 3, officials still have to make judgements regarding was it a pass or a try. For example, if A1 is obviously throwing a long lob pass toward A5 near the basket but is fouled as he releases the throw, are we giving him 3 shots?

bob jenkins Sat Dec 03, 2011 08:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801354)
Apparently if you attempt a 3-point try, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 2 points. 4.41.4C

If you throw a pass to a teammate from behind the arc, miss, and it bounces into the basket off B's head, you get 3 points. 5.2.1C(b)

Weird.

If the "throw" is either on the way up or above the basket at the time of the touch, and is in the general direction of the basket, then award three points.

If the "throw" is back down below the rim, or is not toward the basket, then award two points.

billyu2 Sat Dec 03, 2011 08:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 801559)
If the "throw" is either on the way up or above the basket at the time of the touch, and is in the general direction of the basket, then award three points.

If the "throw" is back down below the rim, or is not toward the basket, then award two points.


I would agree with that, Bob. Otherwise, if Team A is on a fastbreak and A1 from just behind the arc whips a cross-cross court chest pass that is deflected and goes in A's basket, some might be inclined to award 3 points.

Camron Rust Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801549)
The heading is editorial and irrelevant, as Situation B makes clear (it concerns a thrown ball that is NOT a try). The governing rule is 5-2-1, which states:
"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points."

Moreover, the wording of Situation C is distinctive: "A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line."

That's different from Situation A ("A1 attempts a three-point goal.") and is more like Situation B Ruling ("A ball that is thrown into a team's own goal from behind the
three-point arc scores three points, regardless of whether the thrown ball was an
actual try for goal.").

It's clear that Situations B and C concern thrown balls that are NOT tries, and my original puzzle remains.

Note the blue text above. That is not from OOB.

Plus, is OOB really behind the 3-point arc? I say no...the 3-point area is ONLY inbounds. Name any other time a player can score 3-points while throwin the ball from OOB?

bob jenkins Sat Dec 03, 2011 02:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801582)
Note the blue text above. That is not from OOB.

Plus, is OOB really behind the 3-point arc? I say no...the 3-point area is ONLY inbounds. Name any other time a player can score 3-points while throwin the ball from OOB?

I agree -- I didn't know that was (still) an issue. Balls from OOB that are deflected (not intentionally tapped with <= .3 seconds) into the basket are always 2 points.

JugglingReferee Sat Dec 03, 2011 02:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801335)
Disagree. The implied condition for the ruling you're using to make this conclusion is that the thrown ball is inbounds already...not a throw in.

In no possible way could a throwin be a 3-point try so B1 touching it only makes it legal for it to enter the basket...it doesn't make it a 3.

In part (a), I suppose you might get a 3 out of that but not because it was a thrown ball....it was a throwin. It couldn't have been 3 to start with. Only if you judge that A1 was tapping the ball for a 3 would it be 3, not just tipped/touched.

This rule, for a ball thrown from outside the 3-point arc that enters the basket was only intended to remove the necessary judgment of whether it was a try or not when there was a question of whether it was a try or not. A throwin was never in doubt. For that matter, the position of the throwin is neither inside of nor outside of the 3-point arc....It is OOB.

So I should have listened to myself the first time!

mbyron Sat Dec 03, 2011 04:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 801582)
Note the blue text above. That is not from OOB.

Plus, is OOB really behind the 3-point arc? I say no...the 3-point area is ONLY inbounds. Name any other time a player can score 3-points while throwin the ball from OOB?

I never said anything about OOB. Where did that come from? The issue concerns shot vs throw (e.g. a pass).

Pass from behind the arc bounces off B's shoulder and goes in: 3 points, even though it was not a try.

BillyMac Sat Dec 03, 2011 04:20pm

Missing Question Mark ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801612)
Pass from behind the arc bounces off B's shoulder and goes in: 3 points, even though it was not a try.

Is this a question, or a factual statement?

just another ref Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 801614)
Is this a question, or a factual statement?

If you ask me, it's not a factual statement.

Camron Rust Sun Dec 04, 2011 02:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801612)
I never said anything about OOB. Where did that come from? The issue concerns shot vs throw (e.g. a pass).

The original post was about a throwin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 801612)
Pass from behind the arc bounces off B's shoulder and goes in: 3 points, even though it was not a try.

No, it is not. See 4.41.4 SITUATION B. Once it no longer has the chance to enter the basket in flight it can only be a 2.

Remember, they removed the need to decide try/pass so no matter what you thought it was, it comes out the same. That means 4.41.4 SIT B applies whether it was a throw or a try.

The case that you're relying on to rule it a 3 just don't apply to a thrown ball that might have been a try that has fallen short and is not going in. It is ONLY meant to apply a ball that, as thrown, might have been a shot and goes in...and that a tip by a defender at the point of release doesn't change that.

If the defender touches it much closer to the basket, we'd have goaltending....but that can't happen once the shot falls below the rim. So the try (or virtual try) is over. It is just a lose ball that goes in.

Don't take that case so literally and apply it to situations it was never intended to be used for.

Dave9819 Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:22am

So, would 2 points be awarded in this scenario:

A1 shoots the ball from behind the 3 point line. Ball has been released by the shooter and time expires as the ball is in the air. Shot falls short of the basket, bounces off of B1 (head, shoulder, arms - doesn't matter) and goes through the basket. 2 points awarded because the try for goal ended once the ball was below the rim? It is still a live ball, correct?

Same scenario, but instead of hitting B1, it bounces off the floor and into the basket. No points since time expired, correct?

APG Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:26am

No that it wouldn't count in your first situation because time expired and the ball became dead as soon as it was apparent the try will not be successful. The ball bouncing off of B1 is immaterial. If the ball had hit off B1 and entered the basket before time expired, then it would count as two points.


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