3 man for sophomore?
 

Sophomore boy's games are tough games for a two man crew to officiate, in my opinion. Maybe it's just my area, or the schools I've had, but these boys are big and fast.

Do you think we'll ever get to a point where there will be 3 man crews on sophomore games?

What about JV's?
 

Not until we return to the "affluence" of the dot.com era.

Under these financial times, who can afford it?

PS - My last scrimmage today was a BF game - we did three-man for practice.

We do 3 for JV in our big schools, but had to accept a pay cut to keep it a couple years ago.

JV's could use a three man crew as well. Around here the JV teams are made up of the kids who don't see much time on the varsity level.

I hear what you're saying though...the money aspect is a killer for that idea.

Here, the JV is the future varsity kids. Sophomore teams are extra games, not as big a deal.

None of our sub varsity games use 3 man crews. In fact, thanks to budget cuts, many of the varsity level games are going back to 2 man. Makes things pretty difficult.

It is already done in certain parts of our state. It could happen if people value the "safety" and the future of officiating and not just the money.

Peace

Where it's needed
 

Not a big fan of school systems spending money on three officials. Better than they spend the money on reducing participation fees. The mission of the schools is to get as many kids playing as possible, not to cater to the whims of officials associations.

Is there any objective data on what three-whistle means to your average high school game? I don't mean anecdotes, but has anyone compared number of calls made, or looked at a significant number of tapes and figured out objectively whether there is a statistically significant improvement in how well a game is officiated.

No, the mission of the schools is to educate the kids safely.

When I was calling games in northeast Arkansas, we worked Jr. High/ HS V splits. Monday/Thursday were girls, Tues/Friday were boys. We worked ALL those 3 man. That was 2002ish.

Now, in Kansas we do GV/BV doubles. All 2 man. It sucks.

Really? Where, Jeff?

Across the Lake from Rut
 

Mid-size schools experimented with two-man F/JV doubleheaders last year and didn't like what they did with that money-saving venture. They went back to three-man crews for those games. Athletic directors apparently persuaded the administrations to do so, with a prime intent to provide three-man training for future varsity officials. Smallest class schools did two-man last year also, but went back to three-man last year, largely due to the disinterest of larger schools to schedule games with them when they'd only have two-man crews at their home sites.

Four of the six conferences we work use 3 man for JV boys and girls. The other two did as well but changed back to 2 man last year because of budget cuts.

These are the 1A and 2A conferences (smallest schools). However, they play running clock, 7 minute quaters except for the last 2 minutes of each half.

#1, do you really think that's the mission of schools?
#2, we don't have participation fees here.

If you have to ask, then there's no point in even posting the information. You wouldn't believe it anyway.

:rolleyes:

$100/ sport here. :o

Outside of the Chicago area. There is a whole new world if you leave that area. :D

It is not every school or even most, but many schools/conferences/associations use 3 Person for lower level games so that they can train official to the system and get their players and coaches that use 3 Person.

Peace

Here, on the southeast side of Washington State...we do 3 whistle for ALL Boys H.S. games...to include Freshman games.

Not sure what the Girls side does...I am only a member of our local Boys Association.

Girls side is the same, unless there are not enough officials to cover then it's 2-person crews for subvarsity.

It would be interesting if the schools are able to use two for girls without dealing with Title IX complaints.

It'd be nice if we could find a way to start using three whistle in JV as a training ground but I don't see schools ponying up the extra fee. Besides, the way the UIL constitution is currently written, I don't think we could negotiate a slightly lower fee per official to add a third.

Since we've gone 3 person, I've seen a 2-person sub-varsity Girls' game only once or twice.

True...

not sure if the girls' officials feel they need 3 whistle for ALL the levels.

(I know I sure like 3 whislte, for ALL levels, on the boys side!);)

For the Girls' side the extra pair of eyes can be used for fashion police duties J/K :rolleyes:

That would make sense. Scheduling issues would probably be allowable, as long as the school is attempting to get three.

But I'm no attorney.

Here we have to work both, and I can tell you the need is far more consistent with the boys.

It might happen...
 

...after there's a John McSherry type of incident. Maybe.

I'm surprised that the existence of distinct associations for boys and girls doesn't prompt Title IX issues.

I've said the same many times. I have never felt I *needed* three on a girls game here. I've rarely felt that 2 was sufficient on the boys side.

Title IX or political correctness?

Probably both.

Agree with RichMSN
 

Agree totally.

Gone to Dark Side
 

I'm assistant coach this season at the local middle school (Sub-JV level, 7th and 8th graders) Usually we have 2 certified (but this level experience only) officials to do a boys and girls DH. Other day we were at a school 45 miles away that used 2 in street clothes from the stands...two nights later in a different county we get a 3 whistle varsity level crew. Seems anything goes at this age group...got some real gems from the undercover refs!!

Why would it? There is nothing about title IX that requires that a person (independent contractor) who does a job for one group (gender) also do that job for the other gender. Title IX requires the school to offer the same level of opportunities to both genders. It doesn't govern the organizations that provide contract services with the schools/teams.

Schools hiring different quality officials for boys' and girls' events could provide grounds for a liability claim under Title IX.

Many people here seem to find this topic unpleasant, and it's largely irrelevant to officiating, so that's all I'm going to say. :)

As long as the schools pay the same and provide the same accommodations, I think they're clear. They can't control who accepts their contract offers.

Say I am a high school official (I am) and I decide I want to work nothing but boys games. Exactly what are you saying -- the schools and the conferences I work for shouldn't hire me unless I'm willing to work both boys and girls games?

I'm not saying anything about you or the schools you work for. :p

Not sure where that legal standard would come from. We are independent contractors, how can someone make me work any level I choose not to? If they make me do that, then they would violate my rights and an independent contractor and I would have a claim of being an employee.

Peace

I talked to a conference assigner many years ago (before the Internet, when officials sent post cards with their open dates to assigners) who told me that if an official only had Friday and Saturday nights open (the traditional times for boys games in this area) and no Thursdays or Saturday afternoons (the traditional times for girls), that he threw the post card in the trash with prejudice.

I know plenty of officials who simply wouldn't work for that assignor. Personally, I don't mind working girls - as long as I'm working at least 60% or so boys dates.

And that's (y)our prerogative, as a independent contractor. I was just pointing out that there are conferences and assigners out there that may not use (y)our services...as is their prerogative.

If you get the games you want (both quality and quantity), I guess it doesn't matter.

This may be soon coming to Ohio with the OHSAA wanting associations to split between boys and girls basketball, (read as you will have to join 2 associations unless you want to do one or the other). They are trying to get baseball and softball associations to split up, which is more reasonable than the boy/girl basketball thing. (still won't mean squat in basketball tournament selection process in the SE district)

Then again..our baseball/softball association secretary has been warning us about that for the last 2 or 3 years with no changes yet.

It is not uncommon for a boy's assignor not to hire someone because they work too many girl's games or they are not seen to be good enough to work boy's games. So yes they do not have to hire you, but most top boy's officials have no desire to work girl's games. Most officials I know work girl's games as a default and want to eliminate the girl's games when and if they have the opportunity. Also our playoffs run at different times with the girl's working first, so it would be hard to make someone work both.

Peace