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NCHSAA Sat Nov 12, 2011 08:41pm

Flopping Reference
 
What is the particular rules reference for a defensive player not legally being able to fall backwards right before contact???

The play is: A1 is driving to the basket and B1 has obtained LGP, but right before contact they begin to fall backwards. Then there is contact from A1's drive on B1's torso/or body.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Sat Nov 12, 2011 09:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCHSAA (Post 798256)
What is the particular rules reference for a defensive player not legally being able to fall backwards right before contact???

The play is: A1 is driving to the basket and B1 has obtained LGP, but right before contact they begin to fall backwards. Then there is contact from A1's drive on B1's torso/or body.


NCHSAA:

Your play is a perfect example of a defensive player with a LGP reacting imminent contact from an offensive player. This is not flopping to draw a foul but should be a foul by the offensive player if contact occurs.

MTD, Sr.

Adam Sat Nov 12, 2011 09:30pm

The bald old ICP fan has it right. There's a difference between "faking being fouled" (illegal) and reacting to imminent contact (legal.)

Rob1968 Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:35am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCHSAA (Post 798256)
What is the particular rules reference for a defensive player not legally being able to fall backwards right before contact???

The play is: A1 is driving to the basket and B1 has obtained LGP, but right before contact they begin to fall backwards. Then there is contact from A1's drive on B1's torso/or body.

Take a look at 4-7-2, the basis for block - charge plays. Then 4-23-3 e. tells us that "The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact."

Obviously, these statements are the inverse of your OP, and tell us that the guard may move backwards when contact is imminent.

BillyMac Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:12pm

Coming In For A Landing ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 798284)
the guard may move backwards when contact is imminent.

Can't the defender legally move backward an almost any time, even if contact is not imminent, with the exception of moving into the path of an airborne shooter, who has already become airborne?

Rob1968 Sun Nov 13, 2011 01:10pm

BillyMac,

I agree that the defender can always move backwards. The subject of moving backwards when contact is imminent is only part of the legal movements of a defender.
Last season, working a three-man crew with an experienced partner, and another official, with considerably less experience, the younger official, from Lead position, called a block when the defender, who had LGP, recoiled upon imminent contact from a driving ball-handler. At halftime, when I asked him what he saw on the play, he said, " The defender was moving backward and he wasn't "set"." So, we had a discussion, which seems to fit the OP. He didn't want to accept my point of view, that the defender always and certainly on the play in question, has the right to move backward. But, a few days later, he came to me and told me he understood it better.
I'm sure you've heard, from the fans, and from coaches, the "He wasn't set! He was moving!" kinds of retorts, on such calls. Sometimes it seems they want the defender to "take it like a man" to get the charge call.

Camron Rust Sun Nov 13, 2011 01:42pm

One way I prefer to frame this topic revolves around the effect of any such movement....

If the defender has initial LGP, does the movement of the defender increase or create the contact or does it actually decrease, lessen, or soften the contact. If it is the latter, it is probably not a block....as would be the case when stepping away from the shooter.

bob jenkins Sun Nov 13, 2011 01:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 798287)
Can't the defender legally move backward an almost any time, even if contact is not imminent, with the exception of moving into the path of an airborne shooter, who has already become airborne?

Can't the offensive player legally move backward?

Can't the defender legally move sideways?

What if the offensive player is airborne, but isn't an airborne shooter?

IOW, try reading with context and stop trying to make every statement apply to every situation. That's the kind of crap that leads to your technical foul and myth summaries being so complicated. JMO, of course.

Rob1968 Sun Nov 13, 2011 02:06pm

Practical Application - block/charge
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 798295)
One way I prefer to frame this topic revolves around the effect of any such movement....

If the defender has initial LGP, does the movement of the defender increase or create the contact or does it actually decrease, lessen, or soften the contact. If it is the latter, it is probably not a block....as would be the case when stepping away from the shooter.

Very well stated.

BillyMac Sun Nov 13, 2011 05:28pm

But He Was Moving ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob1968 (Post 798284)
The guard may move backwards when contact is imminent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 798287)
Can't the defender legally move backward almost any time, even if contact is not imminent, with the exception of moving into the path of an airborne shooter, who has already become airborne?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 798296)
Stop trying to make every statement apply to every situation

There are already too many "myths" about block/charge situations. I couldn't let this one pass without a comment. You certainly know the various components of the block/charge rule. I know these components as well. Maybe NCHSAA, and Rob1968, know these components. Most officials, certainly most veteran officials, understand this rule.

Leaving the statement, "The guard may move backwards when contact is imminent", uncommented on, may lead some Forum members, especially those who may be young officials, or non officials, i.e. coaches, to believe that the only time a defender may be allowed to move, is only when contact is imminent, and/or, only backwards, when veteran officials know that this is not the case, that there are a number of movements that a defender may legally make.

As a retired teacher, with over thirty years in the classroom, I can't pass up teachable moments. I'm sorry if I wasted anybody's time.

Adam Sun Nov 13, 2011 08:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 798333)
There are already too many "myths" about block/charge situations. I couldn't let this one pass without a comment. You certainly know the various components of the block/charge rule. I know these components as well. Maybe NCHSAA, and Rob1968, know these components. Most officials, certainly most veteran officials, understand this rule.

Leaving the statement, "The guard may move backwards when contact is imminent", uncommented on....

well, leaving your comment that a defender may always move backwards uncommented on could lead to similar misunderstandings amongst the unwashed.

BktBallRef Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:02pm

http://1389blog.com/pix/alarmed-popcorn-smiley.png

BillyMac Mon Nov 14, 2011 06:53am

Almost ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 798287)
Can't the defender legally move backward an almost any time, even if contact is not imminent, with the exception of moving into the path of an airborne shooter, who has already become airborne?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaqwells (Post 798370)
Well, leaving your comment that a defender may always move backwards uncommented on could lead to similar misunderstandings amongst the unwashed.

OK. I'll bite. What did I miss here?

Adam Mon Nov 14, 2011 08:49am

And Don't Call Me Shirley
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 798401)
OK. I'll bite. What did I miss here?

You can't think of any situation where a defender could be called for a foul while backing up? It's early here, and I can think of several off the top of my head.

SNIPERBBB Mon Nov 14, 2011 02:15pm

Theory of Relativity
 
How about "The defender can always move backward relative to the offensive player as long as s/he don't foul another offensive player in the process."


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