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Disregarding the spam posting below, I thought it might be fun to really rate the best player of all time. I'm sure 99% of basketball fans living today consider it to be Michael Jordan. However, I am convinced it is George Mikan.
OK - flame me. |
In his time, George Mikan was a stud. Today, even an average center would swat that weak hook shot of George's into the ninth row. Michael is the best ever.
Z |
I've always been partial to Bird myself. On this subject...a friend and I were commenting on Kareem never appearing on the short list of greatest players ever. To me he was a better all around player than either Wilt or Russell and he won everywhere he played.
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I have always been fond of Oscar Robertson and his career triple-double.
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Wilt Chamberlain
100 points in one game, single season scoring average of 50.4 points/game Never say never, but it is hard to imagine that these records will ever be broken. |
Comparing him to the players of his era is much easier than trying to compare him to Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, or Robertson. That was a different time and a different game. And it was certainly basketball at a more pure form than what we have today. These were great players but the game has changed so much since the 50's and 60's.
Certainly Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were great offensive players and great team leaders who led their teams to multiple championships. Michael played a somewhat more spectacular game than Magic and Larry always reminded me of a basketball version of Pete Rose. Also, Magic and Larry were surrounded by Hall of Fame players, which Michael never was. But neither Magic nor Larry played with the defensive intensity that Michael played with. For example, after serving as an asst. coach on the 1992 Olympic Dream Team, Mike Kryzewski was asked what was the most surprising thing that he learned working with NBA players. He stated that the answer was easy - he could not believe the intensity with which Michael Jordan played defense. I think that while all these players were great players, Michael is the greatest player ever. My 2 pennies. |
It truly depends on what is your definition of "player". I have a hard time not choosing Oscar or Larry. They both made those around him better.
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my opinion
There are many to choose from. In the same breath as Michael Jordan, I also name Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. All three elevated the play of those they played with. They had such good court instincts. They played both ends of the floor. They could score at will and also find the open man.
Beyond these three players, I think everyone else mentioned (although great) are slightly behind. |
First you have to define "greatest player". That's at the heart of all these debates.
Best stats - Wilt Chamberlain. Best career winning percentage & most titles - Bill Russell Most points - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Highest career scoring average - Michael Jordan Larry and Magic saved the NBA, but I couldn't select either of them over any of the players named above. Best versus the players of his era - Chamberlain? Mikan? Best pound-for-pound - Isiah Thomas? Iverson? And what category do we put Maravich in? And it's always tough to discount your personal biases toward the players you've seen play. From my days watching him on WGN every other night, when it seemed like he could do anything he wanted, to last night, when I was getting angry at him for sitting out the fourth quarter, MJ was the only guy that I watched all the time, whether he was on defense or offense, whether he had the ball or not. I'd never take my eyes off him. I couldn't say that about any of the other greats I've seen play in my 31 years. So I'd pick Jordan. I'll take Russell as a close second--it's a team sport; the object is to win. There are a lot of things that you have to do to win that don't show up in the stat sheet. Russell did them all, and did them all as well as anyone from what I've seen and read. Oh, and Oscar Robertson's career assist average was 9.5 per game, and 7.5 rebounds. But he did have one SEASON in which he averaged a triple double, and he averaged a cumulative triple double over his first six seasons. :D |
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I never saw Oscar Robertson play in real life, but I did see him on our old floor model black & white Philco TV.
I remember one drive to the hoop. Triple-teamed, he stopped in mid air with the ball only in his left, then only in his right, then scored only with his left. (<I>There was no slo-mo back then, but the move was perfectly clear.</I>) Just as the ball was released, the old Philco started leaning and fell over on its side. :rolleyes: |
I saw 'em all play- from Mikan to the present(even though I never really saw Mikan in his prime).
If I had to pick one player to start a franchise with,it would be Bill Russell.He was the consumate team player- and one of the all-time smartest,if not the smartest. My all-time favorite NBA ref was Manny Sokol.He wasn't one of the top guys,but he was funny as hell to watch. |
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I bow to your knowledge. mick |
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That was before we had this: http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...eer+statistics |
I heard Russell speak last year and he said that it is impossible to compare players of different era's. He talked about how he would have to stay in different hotels and eat in different restaurants then the white players. Imagine MJ having to do that? If you go with era's, it still isn't easy.
If I had the number one pick I would take any of the following: Wilt Russel Bird Maravich Oscar Jordan (although I can't stand him@!) Lambeer (just because he is my all time favorite player, just ahead of Adrian Dantley.) Magic |
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Here's why it's George Mikan. I feel the only fair way to compare players of different eras is to look at how they rated against the other players of their day. The gap between Mikan and the 2nd best and other players of his era was much wider than the gap between any other "best" player (Michael included) and the 2nd best and other players of their era.
It was because of Mikan that the NBA put in the goaltending rule and widened the lane - not Wilt. His nickname was "Unstoppable". To make a comparison of how much better he was than anyone else who played then, you would have to compare Michael's talent to that of a reserve guard on a .500 ballclub. We all know there are better players than that that have played over the past decade. Besides - the marquee at Madison Square Garden that read "Knicks vs. George Mikan Tonight" says it all. |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
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Was he one of the best ever?? Of course not...but he was entertaining!! |
I'm just curious about your thoguht process.
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IMHO, one of the most important aspects of how great a player a person is, is how did they compare to other great players that they played against. I don't know that being the greatest player of your time makes you the greatest ever if you never played other great players. |
Michael, in his prime, was one the only player who enticed me to watch the NBA. I think at lease in my life time he was the greatest
PS everyone seems to forget Jerrry West--not a bad ballplayer eiter |
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"It's not my foot. The small print says 'Gorilla'. [Laughing] Hey, maybe it's Lambier!" :D Chuck |
A little tidbit about Bill Laimbeer. (Long live the "Bad Boys"!!!)
He vacations and has relatives in my area of the state. (Same town as Dan Majerle is from) Those guys were something else from that Detroit Pistons era. Dennis Rodman was pretty normal for a while. Any way, Laimbeer put on a softball tournament and golf outing each summer for muscular dystrophy, and made large donations from the proceeds. I got to participate and got to know him a little. He "play acted" that "thug" thing pretty well. He was a very kind humanoid in real life. He has a 6'2" daughter that plays for a highly respected high school in the Detroit area. He was always my favorite "Bad Boy". |
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Jordan Wilt Russell Bird Oscar Magic |
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You are an undercover KNICK FAN!!!!! I'm a big MJ fan, but watching him the past 2 years was like watching Ali vs Holmes. I'm happy its finally over. |
I shook hands with Bill Lambier in the Bradley Center parking lot.
...Very tall. |
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Very astute observation. :) TH |
Well, let's add this to the discussion:
WhatIF George Mikan had the access to the weight and training programs we have today? What if any of the players in the past had the same access to the tool of the trade now they didn't have then, athletic trainers, whirlpools, spas, chartered jets. How much better would they be? BTW, for a ground bound white guy, remeber Lambeer won an NBA rebounding title! I will give Jordan the most OVER RATED player title. He is the opposite of Lambeer. Very personable in the spotlight but a louse of a person off the court. If you have lived in the chicago area, and I know there are some here, you found out a lot about the person, and it wasn't pretty. Although it was difficult to get alot of the dirt, what you got showed a different person from the Mars Blackmon commercials |
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Laimbeer was here over the summer, as Rochester, MN held the 14-under girls national AAU tournament. He had a daughter on one of the teams out of Detroit, but she didn't play very many minutes...
Oh, by the way... Jordan. I can't believe there's even an argument. |
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Now somebody mention Kareem on Airplane! and we'll have a good discussion. |
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Charles Barkley's SNL hosting appearance wasn't bad either! |
Re: I'm just curious about your thoguht process.
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"Best" is such a subjective word. Let me add another "Best" catagory. Dikembe Mutombo went to Georgetown on an academic scholorship in pre-med. He is now using a bunch of his millions to build a hospital and med school in his native Congo. Get's my vote for best off the court. Jim
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Best Single Game Stat Ever
Several years ago USA Today surmised that the single game stat that is the most likely to never be broken in the major sports of the U.S. is the 50+ rebounds in a game by Wilt. Their logic was that the single game point record will be eventually be broken by a player with four teammates doing nothing but feeding him the ball, but they won't be able to control rebounds like that. Can't argue with that logic.
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Re: Best Single Game Stat Ever
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Any guesses? |
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Any guesses? [/B][/QUOTE]Yup,I'll guess!Wilt never ever fouled out of an NBA game in his career. Unless you're talkin' about that "20,000 wimmen in a career" record!:D |
I had diner with a guy who covered Pete when Pete
was at LSU. He braged that he once held Pete to 13 points .................................. in 5 minutes. Quote:
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>he could not believe the intensity with which Michael Jordan played defense.
>I think that while all these players were great players, Michael is the greatest player ever. YES! MJ is the best ever because he played *both* ends of the floor. Russell is #2: because he won at every level and was perhaps the greatest defender of all time. Defense, in all sports (look at the last three Super Bowls), is key to championship level success. Even Shaq's group didn't get over the top until Phil ( a hard nosed defender in his day) showed up and showed 'em how. Quote:
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Hey, I'll give Lambier and his crew their due. Once again
an example where defense = champioships. Jordan over rated? LOL, name the ONLY other player to lead the NBA in scoring after turning 30. The other guy only did it once, and at age 30. Jordan did it 4 or 5 times, winning championships in some of the same years, AND being all NBA on the defensive side at that age too. Best ppg career average and he plays into his 40's. I'm not sure about this one, did anyone else lead the NBA in scoring and get named 1st team NBA on defense in the same year(s)? Quote:
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True...I did't say "good," but the point is he is
defensive minded, and he clearly brought that to LA. Not that they are a great defensive club now, but they got better enough to turn the corner. Quote:
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All in the same year. |
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>>My guess would be Kareem. [/B][/QUOTE] Nope. |
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BTW - Mikan won three consecutive championships playing in a different pro league each season! |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef [B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett Quote:
Here's a look at Mikan's stats compared to Moses Malone (who isn't even mentioned as a candidate for all time best: Malone: G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts 1,329 .491 .769 16,212 12.2 1,796 1.4 1,089 1,733 27,409 PPG 20.6 Mikan: G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG 439 .404 .782 4,167 9.5 1,245 2.8 10,156 23.1 Imagine if you looked at the stats PG for Moses just from his nine or so prime seasons. http://www.nba.com/history/players/malonem_summary.html http://www.nba.com/history/players/mikan_summary.html You know I never saw Mikan play, and I'll freely admit he was the man in his era, but I can't imagine the guy in this photo taking it to Shaq, Yao, or Moses for that matter: http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Mikan.htm |
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Notice that George usually averaged at least 7 or 8 ppg higher than the runner up in his league. That type of spread is why I feel he was the greatest. Could he (assuming you could get a time machine) in his prime compete with today's top centers. Probably not, but that wasn't my point. My point is that when you compare players of different eras, in order to have an apples to apples comparison, it is fair to judge them against their peers and see the gap between them and the next best player of their era.
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"it is fair to judge them against their peers and see the gap between them and the next best player of their era."
Or it shows there weren't very many good players in his era.... I mean, his career FG% was just over 40%, and compared to MJ, Moses, K. Malone, Stockton, Kareem, Rodman :-), etc. he had a very short career. What would his PG stats have looked like if he played until he was 40? Again, Jordan lead the NBA in scoring 4 or 5 times after he turned 30, while leading so-so teams to championships. No one else in any era is even close in that regard. Again, West is the only other player to ever do it, and he only did it once. Quote:
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A few more thing about Mikan. While in college, he scored 53 points in a game (which was unheard of in that time) which was more points than the entire opposing team!!! I have never heard of anyone else doing this at the college or pro level.
Also, he was the first man to ever goaltend. This caused the NCAA to institute the goaltending rule, which up until Mikan did it, was legal because it was thought that being able to get up above the rim to block a shot was impossible! He was voted the best basketball player of the first half of the 20th century by the Basketball Writers of America. When the league widened the lane (due to Mikan being so dominant) before one season began, the owner of the Lakers threatened to pull his team from the league. He thought it was unfair to make a rule change due to the ability of only one player. He changed his mind, though, thank goodness. |
"He was voted the best basketball player of the first half of the 20th century by the Basketball Writers of America."
The all white half: http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/fame8_20030408.htm Quote:
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can i change my vote?
I was at the First Union Center in Philadelphia last night. I was lucky enough to see Iverson's 54-point playoff game against the Raptors two years ago, but last night was amazing. He couldn't miss. 55 points and 8 assists, which could've been 13-15 if his teammates weren't having such terrible games.
Given that he's adjusted his game to score like that only when needed, and that he does this all at less than 6 feet and 160 pounds, and that I just saw him play in person, I'm ready to make an argument for him! |
Re: can i change my vote?
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Don't get me wrong. He's very talented. But the best ever? Ask Larry Brown and see what his answer is to that question. |
Here's two other career records Mikan holds that will never be broken:
1) most shots legally goaltended 2) most games played wearing number 99 |
Re: Re: can i change my vote?
I agree Iverson hasn't consistently made those around
him better, but last night he was great. He would have had 15+ assists if his teamates made layups. Moreover, "the best defense (sometimes) IS a great offense." Iverson literally took the NO guards out of the game with foul trouble. As far as hard working, "many coaches" look at steals for hussle stats: http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sSPGQuery.html While Iverson's steals PG stats may go down as he gets older and slower, right now he's still ahead of some of the most legendary "hard workers" in the history of the game. Another thought, regarding making those around you better, would Magic or Stockton be at the top of the assist list if they hadn't played with the likes of Kareem and Malone? It's a chicken or the egg kind of question, and I think they were both great passers, but I wonder. Iverson doesn't have anyone even close to pass to. Nor did Jordan. Quote:
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3) being MVP shooting 40% |
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Imagine how many yards and touchdowns Walter Payton would have had if he played behind an all-star line like some running backs did. |
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by his teamates.... and thinking back to all the scorers Magic had to pass to. Hey, this whole "whose the greatest" thread "can never be resolved due to the nature of the logic." That didn't keep YOU from asking though. ;-) Speaking of running backs, imagine OJ on a good team. Payton *did* have good teams for a while. |
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In my opinion, you have two catagories here - old school & new school. The greatest old school player just has to be Julius "Dr J" Erving. New school has to be MJ. Great debate guys, keep it up.
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In fact, I bet he won't have 2500 after 1072 games. ;) BTW, notice where Magic is on the list. Supports my contention that he wasn't as good defensively. Also, Michael blocked 893 shots in his career, compared to only 374 for Magic. |
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Oh, and I don't really think Iverson can be in the discussion for best ever yet. He has to win some titles and maintain his "team-first" attitude for the rest of his career. But it does bother me that many have judged him a couple of years ago and haven't looked or listened lately. He is a different guy. Coach Brown has made him understand how to use his individual talents and be a team player. Even his teammates Sunday night were saying how his shots came in the flow of the offense. Mike Wilbon predicted that Iverson will lead the national team this summer in scoring and assists. I think T-Mac will outscore him, but that says a lot about the kind of player he has become. |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
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I agree, interesting that Dr. J is well up the list (the only small forward on the list, and I don't think this includes his ABA stats). In fact, a lot of the late 70's, early 80's 76er's show up on the various stat lists: http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sBLKQuery.html http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sFGPQuery.html Which brings up the question, who had the greatest team ever? Although they only had one great year (Dr. J was getting on when Moses arrived, and then Moses got hurt) I like the 82-83 76ers: http://www.nba.com/history/season/19821983.html |
96 Bulls?
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Re: 96 Bulls?
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and April winding down and resting(?) for the playoffs where they were 12-1 (best ever). On might argue the Lakers were hurting in the finals sweep, but Philly swept 'em in the regular season too. I was a huge fan of both teams, but the 76er win was so long coming, it was that much sweeter. Check the Moses coast to coast drive (What a Feeling): http://www.nba.com/sixers/history/1982-83_tribute.html# Has any center ever moved like that? Here's an arguement against the Bulls. I don't buy it all. I don't think you can measure or discount Jordan's will to win: http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basket...uhbullsold.htm |
Hey Joe, the only person Brian Jalas is trying to convince is himself. :)
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Larry Legend
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