Disregarding the spam posting below, I thought it might be fun to really rate the best player of all time. I'm sure 99% of basketball fans living today consider it to be Michael Jordan. However, I am convinced it is George Mikan.

OK - flame me.

In his time, George Mikan was a stud. Today, even an average center would swat that weak hook shot of George's into the ninth row. Michael is the best ever.

Z

I've always been partial to Bird myself. On this subject...a friend and I were commenting on Kareem never appearing on the short list of greatest players ever. To me he was a better all around player than either Wilt or Russell and he won everywhere he played.

I have always been fond of Oscar Robertson and his career triple-double.

Wilt Chamberlain

100 points in one game, single season scoring average of 50.4 points/game

Never say never, but it is hard to imagine that these records will ever be broken.

Comparing him to the players of his era is much easier than trying to compare him to Mikan, Russell, Chamberlain, or Robertson. That was a different time and a different game. And it was certainly basketball at a more pure form than what we have today. These were great players but the game has changed so much since the 50's and 60's.

Certainly Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird were great offensive players and great team leaders who led their teams to multiple championships. Michael played a somewhat more spectacular game than Magic and Larry always reminded me of a basketball version of Pete Rose. Also, Magic and Larry were surrounded by Hall of Fame players, which Michael never was.

But neither Magic nor Larry played with the defensive intensity that Michael played with. For example, after serving as an asst. coach on the 1992 Olympic Dream Team, Mike Kryzewski was asked what was the most surprising thing that he learned working with NBA players. He stated that the answer was easy - he could not believe the intensity with which Michael Jordan played defense.

I think that while all these players were great players, Michael is the greatest player ever.

My 2 pennies.

It truly depends on what is your definition of "player". I have a hard time not choosing Oscar or Larry. They both made those around him better.

my opinion
 

There are many to choose from. In the same breath as Michael Jordan, I also name Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. All three elevated the play of those they played with. They had such good court instincts. They played both ends of the floor. They could score at will and also find the open man.

Beyond these three players, I think everyone else mentioned (although great) are slightly behind.

First you have to define "greatest player". That's at the heart of all these debates.

Best stats - Wilt Chamberlain.

Best career winning percentage & most titles - Bill Russell

Most points - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Highest career scoring average - Michael Jordan

Larry and Magic saved the NBA, but I couldn't select either of them over any of the players named above.

Best versus the players of his era - Chamberlain? Mikan?

Best pound-for-pound - Isiah Thomas? Iverson?

And what category do we put Maravich in?

And it's always tough to discount your personal biases toward the players you've seen play.

From my days watching him on WGN every other night, when it seemed like he could do anything he wanted, to last night, when I was getting angry at him for sitting out the fourth quarter, MJ was the only guy that I watched all the time, whether he was on defense or offense, whether he had the ball or not. I'd never take my eyes off him. I couldn't say that about any of the other greats I've seen play in my 31 years. So I'd pick Jordan.

I'll take Russell as a close second--it's a team sport; the object is to win. There are a lot of things that you have to do to win that don't show up in the stat sheet. Russell did them all, and did them all as well as anyone from what I've seen and read.

Oh, and Oscar Robertson's career assist average was 9.5 per game, and 7.5 rebounds. But he did have one SEASON in which he averaged a triple double, and he averaged a cumulative triple double over his first six seasons. :D

By the way, he didn't happen to matriculate to a campus in Chapel Hill, did he????????

I never saw Oscar Robertson play in real life, but I did see him on our old floor model black & white Philco TV.

I remember one drive to the hoop.
Triple-teamed, he stopped in mid air with the ball only in his left, then only in his right, then scored only with his left. (<I>There was no slo-mo back then, but the move was perfectly clear.</I>)
Just as the ball was released, the old Philco started leaning and fell over on its side. :rolleyes:

I saw 'em all play- from Mikan to the present(even though I never really saw Mikan in his prime).

If I had to pick one player to start a franchise with,it would be Bill Russell.He was the consumate team player- and one of the all-time smartest,if not the smartest.

My all-time favorite NBA ref was Manny Sokol.He wasn't one of the top guys,but he was funny as hell to watch.

Thanks for the correction, PACoach.
I bow to your knowledge.
mick

I had a high school teacher that told me, "You don't have to know everything, but you have to know where to find it."

That was before we had this:

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...eer+statistics

I heard Russell speak last year and he said that it is impossible to compare players of different era's. He talked about how he would have to stay in different hotels and eat in different restaurants then the white players. Imagine MJ having to do that? If you go with era's, it still isn't easy.
If I had the number one pick I would take any of the following:
Wilt
Russel
Bird
Maravich
Oscar
Jordan (although I can't stand him@!)
Lambeer (just because he is my all time favorite player, just ahead of Adrian Dantley.)
Magic

Well, we're even, because Bill Lambier was nothing more than a thug.

I was a year behind Maravich at LSU plus I attended a number of New Orleans Jazz games when he was there. All that I can say is that the things he could do with a basketball were beyond description. If he would have had the teams behind him, like MJ did with the Bulls, there is no doubt in my mind that he would be considered the best there ever was.

I don't even consider Lambeer ia basketball player. Now, Dantley was a different matter. He could play. And how did Digger never will it all? He had some players in South Bend.

Here's why it's George Mikan. I feel the only fair way to compare players of different eras is to look at how they rated against the other players of their day. The gap between Mikan and the 2nd best and other players of his era was much wider than the gap between any other "best" player (Michael included) and the 2nd best and other players of their era.

It was because of Mikan that the NBA put in the goaltending rule and widened the lane - not Wilt. His nickname was "Unstoppable". To make a comparison of how much better he was than anyone else who played then, you would have to compare Michael's talent to that of a reserve guard on a .500 ballclub. We all know there are better players than that that have played over the past decade.

Besides - the marquee at Madison Square Garden that read "Knicks vs. George Mikan Tonight" says it all.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Well, we're even, because Bill Lambier was nothing more than a thug.

Oh Tony, how could you say that??? :) A big, rather homely looking white guy, who couldn't jump,could barely run, and yet he was pivotal to Detroit's championship seasons! I loved Laimbeer!

Was he one of the best ever?? Of course not...but he was entertaining!!

I'm just curious about your thoguht process.
 

If the players that he played against were not very good, why do you feel he he was so great? How can his greatness truly be measured? :confused:

IMHO, one of the most important aspects of how great a player a person is, is how did they compare to other great players that they played against. I don't know that being the greatest player of your time makes you the greatest ever if you never played other great players.

Michael, in his prime, was one the only player who enticed me to watch the NBA. I think at lease in my life time he was the greatest

PS everyone seems to forget Jerrry West--not a bad ballplayer eiter

Another great "Cheers" moment. The Cheers gang has a basketball team and they're scheduled to play a rival bar's team. The other team wants to have Kevin McHale on its team, and the Cheers gang agrees b/c they have an X-ray of Kevin's foot, showing that it's broken. So they figure he can't really play, so let him be on the team. Well, Kevin shows up for the game and destroys the Cheers team. Later, back at Cheers, Kevin shows up and thanks the guys for being good sports. Sam shows Kevin the X-ray and asks how he could play on a broken foot. Kevin takes a good long look at the X-ray and says:

"It's not my foot. The small print says 'Gorilla'. [Laughing] Hey, maybe it's Lambier!" :D

Chuck

A little tidbit about Bill Laimbeer. (Long live the "Bad Boys"!!!)
He vacations and has relatives in my area of the state. (Same town as Dan Majerle is from) Those guys were something else from that Detroit Pistons era. Dennis Rodman was pretty normal for a while.
Any way, Laimbeer put on a softball tournament and golf outing each summer for muscular dystrophy, and made large donations from the proceeds. I got to participate and got to know him a little.
He "play acted" that "thug" thing pretty well. He was a very kind humanoid in real life.
He has a 6'2" daughter that plays for a highly respected high school in the Detroit area.
He was always my favorite "Bad Boy".

Laimbeer? I don't think so.

Jordan
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Oscar
Magic

Can't stand Jordan!!
You are an undercover KNICK FAN!!!!!

I'm a big MJ fan, but watching him the past 2 years was like watching Ali vs Holmes. I'm happy its finally over.

I shook hands with Bill Lambier in the Bradley Center parking lot.
...Very tall.

mick,
Very astute observation.
:)
TH

Well, let's add this to the discussion:
WhatIF George Mikan had the access to the weight and training programs we have today? What if any of the players in the past had the same access to the tool of the trade now they didn't have then, athletic trainers, whirlpools, spas, chartered jets. How much better would they be?
BTW, for a ground bound white guy, remeber Lambeer won an NBA rebounding title! I will give Jordan the most OVER RATED player title. He is the opposite of Lambeer. Very personable in the spotlight but a louse of a person off the court. If you have lived in the chicago area, and I know there are some here, you found out a lot about the person, and it wasn't pretty. Although it was difficult to get alot of the dirt, what you got showed a different person from the Mars Blackmon commercials

Overrated? Now, even though I think Lambier was a thug, Ill give him that he was a strong rebounder and a pretty good outside shooter. At least you didn't deny that he was a thug. But Jordan, overrated? Yeah, right.

Laimbeer was here over the summer, as Rochester, MN held the 14-under girls national AAU tournament. He had a daughter on one of the teams out of Detroit, but she didn't play very many minutes...

Oh, by the way...

Jordan. I can't believe there's even an argument.

In the category of bball players trying to be funny, I'll take Jordan on SNL. The bit with Stuart Smalley was classic, and his appearance with the Superfans was also hilarious.

Now somebody mention Kareem on Airplane! and we'll have a good discussion.

Airplane was just an all-around classic!

Charles Barkley's SNL hosting appearance wasn't bad either!

Re: I'm just curious about your thoguht process.
 

By this criteon, it has to be Russel! Russel regularly stopped/topped Chamberlain. It was one of the classic match-ups in sports history. Russel was the only player to stop Chamberlain. He is also the only one to face, and consistenly defeat head-to-head, another contender for best of all time. And he did it while giving up 5 or more inches. Even in his era, he was not big for a center, but he he proved you only have to be "big enough".

"Best" is such a subjective word. Let me add another "Best" catagory. Dikembe Mutombo went to Georgetown on an academic scholorship in pre-med. He is now using a bunch of his millions to build a hospital and med school in his native Congo. Get's my vote for best off the court. Jim

Best Single Game Stat Ever
 

Several years ago USA Today surmised that the single game stat that is the most likely to never be broken in the major sports of the U.S. is the 50+ rebounds in a game by Wilt. Their logic was that the single game point record will be eventually be broken by a player with four teammates doing nothing but feeding him the ball, but they won't be able to control rebounds like that. Can't argue with that logic.

Re: Best Single Game Stat Ever
 

I agree that's the best single game stat ever. Wilt also holds a career stat that can never be broken, only tied.

Any guesses?

Re: Re: Best Single Game Stat Ever
 

I agree that's the best single game stat ever. Wilt also holds a career stat that can never be broken, only tied.

Any guesses? [/B][/QUOTE]Yup,I'll guess!Wilt never ever fouled out of an NBA game in his career.

Unless you're talkin' about that "20,000 wimmen in a career" record!:D

I had diner with a guy who covered Pete when Pete
was at LSU. He braged that he once held Pete to 13 points
.................................. in 5 minutes.

>he could not believe the intensity with which Michael Jordan played defense.

>I think that while all these players were great players, Michael is the greatest player ever.

YES! MJ is the best ever because he played *both* ends of
the floor. Russell is #2: because he won at every level
and was perhaps the greatest defender of all time.

Defense, in all sports (look at the last three Super Bowls), is key to championship level success. Even Shaq's group didn't get over the top until Phil ( a hard nosed defender in his day) showed up and showed 'em how.

Phil Jackson may have been a hard nosed defender,but he wasn't personally known as a particularly "good" defender.He was a "banger",not a "stopper".He admitted that in his autobiography--written in his flower child days in the '70s.

Hey, I'll give Lambier and his crew their due. Once again
an example where defense = champioships.

Jordan over rated? LOL, name the ONLY other player to
lead the NBA in scoring after turning 30. The other
guy only did it once, and at age 30. Jordan did it
4 or 5 times, winning championships in some of the same years, AND being all NBA on the defensive side at that age too. Best ppg career average and he plays into his 40's.

I'm not sure about this one, did anyone else lead the
NBA in scoring and get named 1st team NBA on defense
in the same year(s)?

True...I did't say "good," but the point is he is
defensive minded, and he clearly brought that to
LA. Not that they are a great defensive club now, but
they got better enough to turn the corner.

Hey Joe, to be even more precise, Jordan led the league with a scoring avg. of 37.1 ppg and was also NBA Defensive Player of the Year in 1988. Other than Wilt's high scoring years, that's the highest single season scoring average and total points, over 3000, in NBA history.

All in the same year.

Could it be Rick Barry?

I didn't know that, but it goes to the point. He played both ends of the court very well.

Nope.

Also, the only 40 year old player to ever score over 40 points in a game.

My guess would be Kareem.

>>My guess would be Kareem. [/B][/QUOTE]


Nope.

JW. 32.

Bingo!

Jordan is the only 40 year old to ever score 40 or more in an NBA game. He did it about a month ago.

I thought you guys meant besides Michael. Sorry.

BTW - Mikan won three consecutive championships playing in a different pro league each season!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Padgett

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef BTW - Mikan won three consecutive championships playing in a different pro league each season!

Here's a look at Mikan's stats compared to Moses Malone (who isn't even mentioned as a candidate for all time best:

Malone:
G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts
1,329 .491 .769 16,212 12.2 1,796 1.4 1,089 1,733 27,409
PPG
20.6

Mikan:
G FG% FT% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
439 .404 .782 4,167 9.5 1,245 2.8 10,156 23.1

Imagine if you looked at the stats PG for Moses just
from his nine or so prime seasons.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/malonem_summary.html

http://www.nba.com/history/players/mikan_summary.html

You know I never saw Mikan play, and I'll freely admit he
was the man in his era, but I can't imagine the guy in this
photo taking it to Shaq, Yao, or Moses for that matter:

http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Mikan.htm

Mine too, b/c he's the one that Robert Parrish clubbed to the floor. And he deserved it, too! :)

I agree that he deserved it. You must admit.. those Pistons changed the way the game is played. (not saying that it was for the better, however)

Notice that George usually averaged at least 7 or 8 ppg higher than the runner up in his league. That type of spread is why I feel he was the greatest. Could he (assuming you could get a time machine) in his prime compete with today's top centers. Probably not, but that wasn't my point. My point is that when you compare players of different eras, in order to have an apples to apples comparison, it is fair to judge them against their peers and see the gap between them and the next best player of their era.

Yeah, before they came along, you hardly ever heard the words "flagrant foul"... :D

"it is fair to judge them against their peers and see the gap between them and the next best player of their era."

Or it shows there weren't very many good players in his era.... I mean, his career FG% was just over 40%, and compared to MJ, Moses, K. Malone, Stockton, Kareem, Rodman :-), etc. he had a very short career. What would his
PG stats have looked like if he played until he was 40?

Again, Jordan lead the NBA in scoring 4 or 5 times after
he turned 30, while leading so-so teams to championships. No one else in any era is even close in that regard. Again, West is the only other player to ever do it, and he only did it once.

A few more thing about Mikan. While in college, he scored 53 points in a game (which was unheard of in that time) which was more points than the entire opposing team!!! I have never heard of anyone else doing this at the college or pro level.

Also, he was the first man to ever goaltend. This caused the NCAA to institute the goaltending rule, which up until Mikan did it, was legal because it was thought that being able to get up above the rim to block a shot was impossible!

He was voted the best basketball player of the first half of the 20th century by the Basketball Writers of America.

When the league widened the lane (due to Mikan being so dominant) before one season began, the owner of the Lakers threatened to pull his team from the league. He thought it was unfair to make a rule change due to the ability of only one player. He changed his mind, though, thank goodness.

"He was voted the best basketball player of the first half of the 20th century by the Basketball Writers of America."

The all white half:

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/fame8_20030408.htm

can i change my vote?
 

I was at the First Union Center in Philadelphia last night. I was lucky enough to see Iverson's 54-point playoff game against the Raptors two years ago, but last night was amazing. He couldn't miss. 55 points and 8 assists, which could've been 13-15 if his teammates weren't having such terrible games.

Given that he's adjusted his game to score like that only when needed, and that he does this all at less than 6 feet and 160 pounds, and that I just saw him play in person, I'm ready to make an argument for him!

Re: can i change my vote?
 

I understand your point. But being considered the greatest player of all requires more than individual stats. Does he make the others around him better? I heard many coaches say that the best players nedd to be the hardest worker on the team. Does he fit this? I don't think so.

Don't get me wrong. He's very talented. But the best ever? Ask Larry Brown and see what his answer is to that question.

Here's two other career records Mikan holds that will never be broken:

1) most shots legally goaltended
2) most games played wearing number 99

Re: Re: can i change my vote?
 

I agree Iverson hasn't consistently made those around
him better, but last night he was great. He would have
had 15+ assists if his teamates made layups. Moreover, "the
best defense (sometimes) IS a great offense." Iverson literally took the NO guards out of the game with foul trouble.

As far as hard working, "many coaches" look at steals
for hussle stats:

http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sSPGQuery.html

While Iverson's steals PG stats may go down as he gets older and slower, right now he's still ahead of some of the most legendary "hard workers" in the history of the game.

Another thought, regarding making those around you better,
would Magic or Stockton be at the top of the assist list if
they hadn't played with the likes of Kareem and Malone? It's
a chicken or the egg kind of question, and I think they were
both great passers, but I wonder. Iverson doesn't have anyone even close to pass to. Nor did Jordan.

add:

3) being MVP shooting 40%

Re: Re: Re: can i change my vote?
 

This is the type of statement that can never be resolved due to the nature of the logic. Almost all individual sports stats are, to some extent, dependent on the performance of teammates.

Imagine how many yards and touchdowns Walter Payton would have had if he played behind an all-star line like some running backs did.

Re: Re: Re: Re: can i change my vote?
 

I agree, it's just a thought provoked by Iverson's performance last night, and counting the assists blown
by his teamates.... and thinking back to all the scorers
Magic had to pass to. Hey, this whole "whose the greatest"
thread "can never be resolved due to the nature of the logic." That didn't keep YOU from asking though. ;-)

Speaking of running backs, imagine OJ on a good team. Payton
*did* have good teams for a while.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: can i change my vote?
 

OJ ran behind some all-pro guards. Payton's line was mediocre at best. When he was on the Bears, they usually had a great defense, not offensive line. BTW - the most enjoyable runner to watch, IMHO, was Gayle Sayers. He truly was poetry in motion.

In my opinion, you have two catagories here - old school & new school. The greatest old school player just has to be Julius "Dr J" Erving. New school has to be MJ. Great debate guys, keep it up.

Call back when he's won 4 or 6 or 8 championships. :)

No, he doesn't. He hates practice, remember? :(

Jordan led the league is steals the first few years he was in the league. He averaged close to 3 steals per game early in his career. I think you're correct that AI's steal total will diminish as he gets older.

In fact, I bet he won't have 2500 after 1072 games. ;)

BTW, notice where Magic is on the list. Supports my contention that he wasn't as good defensively. Also, Michael blocked 893 shots in his career, compared to only 374 for Magic.

Not 40%, but Iverson shot 42% the year he won MVP. And according to http://www.basketballreference.com, Mikan was never MVP, that the award only started in the late 50s.

Oh, and I don't really think Iverson can be in the discussion for best ever yet. He has to win some titles and maintain his "team-first" attitude for the rest of his career.

But it does bother me that many have judged him a couple of years ago and haven't looked or listened lately. He is a different guy. Coach Brown has made him understand how to use his individual talents and be a team player. Even his teammates Sunday night were saying how his shots came in the flow of the offense.

Mike Wilbon predicted that Iverson will lead the national team this summer in scoring and assists. I think T-Mac will outscore him, but that says a lot about the kind of player he has become.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Originally posted by A Pennsylvania Coach Quote: Originally posted by Joe As far as hard working, "many coaches" look at steals for hussle stats: While Iverson's steals PG stats may go down as he gets older and slower, right now he's still ahead of some of the most legendary "hard workers" in the history of the game. Jordan led the league is steals the first few years he was in the league. He averaged close to 3 steals per game early in his career. I think you're correct that AI's steal total will diminish as he gets older. In fact, I bet he won't have 2500 after 1072 games. ;) BTW, notice where Magic is on the list. Supports my contention that he wasn't as good defensively. Also, Michael blocked 893 shots in his career, compared to only 374 for Magic.

Yes and yes.

I agree, interesting that Dr. J is well up the list (the only small forward on the list, and I don't think this includes his ABA stats). In fact, a lot of the late 70's, early 80's 76er's show up on the various stat lists:

http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sBLKQuery.html

http://www.nba.com/history/all_time_...sFGPQuery.html

Which brings up the question, who had the greatest team ever? Although they only had one great year (Dr. J was getting on when Moses arrived, and then Moses got hurt) I like the 82-83 76ers:

http://www.nba.com/history/season/19821983.html

96 Bulls?
 

Hard to say. 72-10 and 15-3 in the playoffs is hard to beat.

Re: 96 Bulls?
 

76ers were 65-17, but most of the losses were in March
and April winding down and resting(?) for the playoffs where they were 12-1 (best ever). On might argue the Lakers were hurting in the finals sweep, but Philly swept 'em in the regular season too.

I was a huge fan of both teams, but the 76er win was so
long coming, it was that much sweeter.

Check the Moses coast to coast drive (What a Feeling):

http://www.nba.com/sixers/history/1982-83_tribute.html#

Has any center ever moved like that?

Here's an arguement against the Bulls. I don't buy it all.
I don't think you can measure or discount Jordan's will to
win:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basket...uhbullsold.htm

Hey Joe, the only person Brian Jalas is trying to convince is himself. :)

Larry Legend
 

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/030425.html

My choice is the Hick from French Lick!