Hands Up or Hands Down?
 

Are players lined up in the lane spaces for free throws allowed to have their arms up?

I have had this in my games and some officials I worked with tell players hands down.

There's nothing that says the hands have to be down...but you can make a case of disconcertion if a player put the hands up abruptly as the shot was going up.

No spirit fingers.

Ask the boys, "why the jazz hands." It should stop.

OTOH, there's no basis for telling players to put their hands down. Ranks up there with moving everyone behind the division line on techs and ints.

I'd have a hard time calling that disconcertion.

Realistically if a shooter is going to be "disconcerted" by this, then that player has zero concentration, and is going to be in trouble when the cute cheerleader in the corner starts doing that or some fan does the same thing too.

I don't say anything until they start breaking out the choreography.

Again, I have a real hard time imagining how 2-4 players wiggling their fingers along the lane line would "disconcert" anyone. :confused:

Of course, I'd be more shocked to see something like this in a boys game...by more than one person.

I'm not worried about jazz hands, I'm not going to really say anything until they start raising and lowering the arms in concert, just as the shooter is shooting.

What about if hands are up beyond the width of their lane space or over the lane line? In otherwords, NOT Vertical?

Funny thing, I did a formal (2 teams) college scrimmage yesterday and one of my partners told the star player for one of the teams that he had to stop doing this. He was in the spot right closest to the shooter.

Find me the wording that restricts this in the rule book.

Rule book talks about placement of feet..don't see anything about hands or arms. But I have had Vets I work with tell players arms down..thus the source of my confusion:o

Did you ever ask them the question - (nicely of course) - "Really? Can you cite me the rule or let me know where to look in the book as I don't recall that one?"

I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. But, it may also cause the "vets" to look for it after the game too and make them go hmmm......

I am going to play devil's advocate here and will ask you the following question: What does the word 'disconcertion' mean to you. How does this relate to: NFHS R4-S20-A1: A free throw is the opportunity given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicirlcle and behind the free-throw line. NCAA R4-S30-A1: A free throw is the previlige given a player to score one point by an unhindered try for goal from within the free-throw semicirlcle and behind the free-throw line.

The word 'unhindered' is the key to how we as officials handle this situation. I think that all of us would agree that if all of the defenisive players were to start saying "miss it", "miss it", "miss it" from the time the shooter received the ball from the time he released it on his free throw attempt, this would be a classic example of 'disconcertion'. "Playing the piano", which is what I call the waving of one's hands/fingers, is really no different that saying "miss it", "miss it". It is disconcertion because the shooter is not receiving an "unhindered" free throw attempt. The defense can hold there arms up, but it can not "play the piano".

MTD, Sr.

I can tell you it ain't no "jazz hands."

APG:

Please read my blue addition to my original post.

MTD, Sr.

You go ahead and make that call MTD...I'm still not calling that.

Even if you don't plan on calling it, you can still tell them to knock it off...."If I see you doing that and I think it distracted the shooter and caused him to miss, he'll get another shot" (emphasis on "and I think it..."). You can get the desired result without ever calling it.

I'd go that route if a coach made an issue of it.

APG:

Camron's post is what I do and have done my entire career. But fact remains is that it is disconcertion because it is keeping the shooter from having an 'unhindered' attempt to make a free throw. The word 'unhindered' is the key word in the definition of a free throw. If you aren't going to stop at least the two defensive players nearest the free thrower from playing the piano, then how can you penalize the same defensive players from saying "miss it, miss it, miss it" while the free thrower is attempting his free throw.

MTD, Sr.

Sorry, I'm not convinced it's in any way a hinderance to wiggle the fingers. Unless you're willing to require all defenders along the lane stand perfectly still, you're just setting yourself up for problems by trying to deal with this.

Raising and/or lowering arms in concert with other teammates? Sure. Wiggling the fingers? Nah.

Case Book - Disconcertion - Judgement
 

9.1.3D and 9.1.3G Both apply, and both mention the judgement of the covering official.

I take unhindered to mean...you can't get in the shooter's face. I'm not reading more into it. The defensive team can not disconcert not because it's "hindering" rather because the rules in all the codes say you can't disconcert. Disconcertion is a judgement call and in my judgement, I have a hard time seeing how someone waving their fingers is disconcertion at all.

Why are the defenders doing it? They're doing it with the hope that it will cause the shooter to be distracted and miss. It may not be effective very often, but that is their intent. Since the ONLY reason for them to do it is to disconcert the shooter, why allow it?

APG:

Since you believe that only getting "in the shooter's face" is hindering the shooter, then it must be okay for the defensive players to yell "miss it, miss it, miss it" while the shooter is attempting his free throw.

MTD, Sr.

That's not what he said. He said there's a difference between hindering and disconcerting. The rule prohibits both but they are not synonymous.

Because I see the rule prohibiting actual disconcertion, not feeble attempts at distraction.

Snaqs:

What Camron and I are saying that the word "unhindered" means just that. The free thrower is being awarded an attempt to score one point from behind the free throw line without any distractions from his opponents. This has been the starndard for as long as I have been officiating and before. The definition of what is a free throw has been the same for well over fifty years.

Camron described how he handles potentional situations of this nature and I have been handling situations like this just like Camron does for as long as I can remember.

MTD, Sr.

Fair enough, and I have a great deal of respect for both of you.

However, the only time I ever see "jazz hands" is in low level girls ball, and I've never, ever, not once, had an opposing coach or player complain about it. The movement isn't that big (unlike arms rising and falling).

When I played, I wouldn't have been able to see the fingers anyway.

I don't consider jazz hands to be either a hindrance or a disconcertion. If a coach mentioned it, I'd probably simply compliment the team on their "jazz hands" and see if that works.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm feeling verklempt. Discuss amongst yourselves. Topic: Middle School scoreboards and dress codes, and how they affect the backcourt substitution rules.

One BIG question though:
 

"Who's got shooter?"...

I think it is fine. Officials tend do think that they have more authority then they actually do.

klacc:

"What" do you think is fine? And, please go into detail as to how officials "think that they have more authority then they actually do"? Camron and I would love to know.

MTD, Sr.

Which someone usually confirms they do. So after the first free throw I will step in and say "Number 14" has the shooter so we don't need to keep asking. ;)

I'm with you on this one. While I can't envision the wiggling fingers actually consituting diconcertion, I suppose it's possible. But klacc's statement here seems like he heard it from a guy who also likes to say officials should be invisible during the game.

+1. Exactly.

Squeaky Shoes
 

As I have mentioned in the past, I had a player, in different games, behind the shooter and in the space next to the shooter squeak their shoes. Here is the kicker. One time the shooter stopped and looked at the squeaker. (disconcerting?). I held out my hand and called a violation when the free throw was missed. I did not have the time to quietly warn the squeaker.
What about the Coach or Bench personnel yelling during the free throw? I had a Coach yell "Get the Rebound" and it was the 1st of 2 throws.:eek:
I try to inform the players. " Hands up or down. No movement or talking when the player has the ball."

I saw a few comments about if it was legal for the hands to be out, i.e. not vertical, and questioning if it was in the rule book. I have looked and cannot find it either. When I brought it up at an association meeting last night, EVERYONE there said it was not legal, but nobody could tell me where it was in the rule book.

So, I would like to know if anyone on here can point out in the rule book where this is restricted, or if anyone actually restricts players from doing it in the game.

You won't find it in the rule book because there's nothing in the book that restricts a player from doing this...nor requires the hands to be vertical or down.

Right -- there's only the requirement that it not be judged "disconcerting."

And that their FEET be within the 4 vertical planes that define the lane space (which is 3 feet by 3 feet) and one of them near the lane lane (whatever "near" is) until the try hits.

A lot of the confusion probably arises from officials trying to extend these restrictions to the hands/arms.

So your association must call a lot of free throw lane violations.

This has been my experience as well and why I asked the question. The way I was taught to handle it was tell the players the first time you see the hands and arms not vertical to tell them either hands down or straight up. Have not called any violations for this..just the verbal guidance

Why? What rule are they breaking?

Case Book - Disconcertion - Judgement
 

Case Book 9.1.3 D and 9.1.3 G both reference the judgement of the official. So, when in Rome . . .

Rob:

I would like to refer you to the 14th, 18th, and 20th posts in this thread.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, he's not even talking about wiggling the fingers; he's just talking about outstretched arms. That's even more of a stretch of the disconcertion rule than the 14th, 18th, and 20th posts in this thread.

MTD, Sr.
Mostly, I was thinking of the many discussions that occur on this forum, that may never come to a a conclussion, because of the allowance of judgement that is inherent in particular scenarios. I've been in meetings in which "twinkling the fingers" has been stated as a violation of the disconcertion rule, and in others in which talking among teammates, during the free-throw, or raising a hand or hands, arm or arms, is said to be a violation, etc.
I'm comfortable with the judgement of most of my partners, whether they see such actions as a violation or not. And I enjoy the interchange of personal guidelines of judgement that are expressed in these threads.
Sometimes, the judgement of a particular official follows the written info in the Case Book, sometimes it compresses that info, and sometimes it expands it, in his/her application. Still, I enjoy working with a new partner, and noting the nuances of his/her application of the rules and guidelines, just like I enjoy this forum.

You Are In For A Real Treat ...
 

Let's see if you're still saying that when Jurassic Referee returns from his sabbatical?

And speaking of JR, I did a search and his last post on Officiating.com was in the Basketball Forum on Thursday, May 12, 2011, at 09:17pmEDT.

There are a few of us who also posted on the old NFHS Officials Forum and knew the JR posted on that Forum under a different name, and since that Forum has been closed in favor of the new NFHS Officials Forum so I can't search for when he last posted on the old NFHS Officials Forum. I don't think he as posted on the new NFHS Officials Forum.

MTD, Sr.

He's An Ambush Predator ...
 

He got pissed off at Scrapper1, picked up his basketball, and went home. He'll be back. I'm sure that he's lurking out there, ready to pounce, and attack, at the first opportunity.

...come back JR...we need you!

OK...we NEED:

* your instruction
* your experience
* your knowledge
* your humor
* your ability to give us a kick in the butt when we need it...and even when we don't. ;)