Case 3.3.6 Sit D
 

A1 is injured as the horns sounds to end the first quarter and the coach of Team A is beckoned by an official onto the court to attend to A5. RULING:
The intermission should begin when A5 is removed from the court. No substitute is required when A5 is ready to play to start the second quarter. When A5 is not ready, a substitute should report before the warning horn or a time out may be requested by Team A to keep A5 in the game.

I have several question here just to make sure that I am understanding the proper ruling on this case.

1. If team A coach waits until after the 45 sec warning horn to send a sub for A5, this does not prevent that sub from entering the game? Because we can't begin the second quarter with only 4 team A players, correct?

2. And if he decides at 55 seconds of the 1 minute intermission that he wants a time out to keep A5 in the game, can anyone think of why we would not grant that request?

I seems to think that if he wants a time out before the ball becomes live to begin the second quarter, then we should grant his request? Agree or disagree?

Any thought would be appreciated?

If A1's(A5???) situation can not be corrected by the end of intermission, the coach will need to sub for him/her. The Time out can be requested and granted. 5-11-5 & 5-11-7 are when you should not grant a time out.

Why can't they start the quarter with 4 player?

3-1-1 note ....if a team has no substitutes to replace the disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five.

I read this as you must play with 5, unless there is nobody on the bench

Edit: Situation 3.1.1 covers this

Hmm. Seems to me the coach would have to decide whether to sub for A1 or use a TO before we start the intermission. Either that or the injury rules don't apply to injuries during intermissions and standard sub rules apply.

My thoughts while trying to avoid being too wordy;

1. Correct. If the intermission ended and no sub had reported, I would expect the player to remain in the game. If coach informed me then that he was injured and could not go, I would inform him we need a sub. If he requested a TO, I would grant it. If not, I would start the timer.

2. I cannot think of any reason not to grant the TO.

IMO, I believe 3.3.6D means that a TO is not required to keep an injured player in the game. It does not mean that it is not available.

I don't have this year's book, but this case play opens up an interesting scenario.

If the sub has not reported before the first horn (as required) and the injured player is not able to play to start the quarter, then what? It seems that you must allow the sub, even though that violates 3.3.1a (sub must report before first horn.)

My question is: Where in the RULE book does it say that an injury at the end of a quarter does not require replacement? I was trying to scan through and could not find it if it is there.

If the quarter has ended, the coach doesn't need to be beckoned to enter the court, does he?

The time-out area does not include the entire court. There are a couple of points in this case play.

• The intermission between quarters does not start until the injured player is removed from the court.
• Even though the coach was beckoned, the injured player may return if ready by the warning horn.
• If the injured player cannot return, the substitute must report by the warning horn.

The last point is a problem...because there is no sanction if the sub does not report in time. If the injured player cannot return, it does not matter when the substitute reports. He's coming into the game. The only penalty available when a substitute does not report in time is to forbid the sub from entering the game. There is no way we can require an injured player to return before the coach says he's ready.

So if the sub (for the injured player) came in "late", would you let the other team counter with a sub? I would, even though it's not an "allowable time to substitute" (or whatever the rule book wording is).

I've thought about this...and decided the rule does not allow this.

If a sub reports at the last second (but before the warning horn), there is no provision for the other team to counter. That is how I am going to handle this.

So I am going to (only) bring in the sub for the injured player...until the NFHS says otherwise.

I'd bring them all in based on the precedent of injured and dq'd players during FTs.

I disagree. Before the warning horn both teams have equal opportunity to send subs to the table so it's not the same.

If you were to deny the opposing team to bring in a sub to counter in this situation are you also going deny the opposing team to bring in a 'counter' sub if you had to stop live play due to an injured player?

The rule is different. During a dead ball (which is what you have once you stop play for the injured player) subs can report until the ball is about to become live.

The case play is between quarters...not the last play of the game. I understand your point; there simply is no rule that allows it. There has been a constant refrain at both the NFHS and NCAA to enforce the rules as written and not for individuals to substitute their judgment for the rules. This case book play should have foreseen this problem and answered it.

Sitch:
A1 is injured, coach is beckoned, and decides to use a timeout to keep A1.
After the TO, A1 is not ready, so A6 reports (after the horn) to replace the injured A1.
B coach wants to counter the sudden sub with B6.

It seems to me the ability to offer an uncounterable sub is an advantage not intended by the rules here, so A coach should not be allowed to gain it this way.

There is nothing in the rules that speaks to "countering" subs. If a coach sends a player to the table 16 seconds before a time out ends, that sub comes in but the other team cannot counter because there is no way that sub is going to get there before the warning horn.

You are trying to instill your sense of equity and fairness where the rules don't address it. That is what the rules makers at the high school and college level have been trying to stop for the last few years.

No, I'm trying to follow the "Intent and Purpose of the Rules," as the rule book itself states "It is important to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."

When an event occurs that allows one sub to enter a game at a time when it would otherwise be disallowed (injury, DQ, etc.), all other subs who have reported are also allowed to enter the game.

Same old argument, right?

Okay, let's talk consequences. Let's say an official did it BayState's way. Team B's sub would have to wait until the next whistle. After anywhere from 1-40 seconds, he gets in, and the game goes on.

Conversely, let's say an official does it Snaq's way. Team B's sub gets in right away, even though it's clearly after the warning horn. The game goes on.

First question: How much objection would you get either way? My best guess is that Coach B is more likely to object for a player not getting in that Coach A would by letting B's team get a sub in under the circumstances. Of course, this is the least of your worries.

Second question: What would your assigner do (WWYAD)? That depends on your assigner. Is he more of a letter-of-the-law guy, or a "fairness" guy?

Third question: If your assigner did indeed disagree with your choice, how much grief would you get? In the grand scheme of things, you'd be asked, "Oh, remember that thing at intermission where you...?" Philosophies would exchange, but ultimately, we're talking about a single sub during an intermission that's not clearly covered under the rules. I say it falls under minutia, and at worst, you'd get a "don't do it again" if your assigner disagrees with your call.

If you allow 1 sub in the game shouldn't all properly reported subs be allowed in also?

IOW, once the warning horn sounds no subs should be coming in. It is now discovered that B33 is injured to the point he can't return. Coach B sends his sub to the table. Coach A sees this and sends A35 to the table. What rules basis would we have not allow A35 to enter also?

Well stated.

As officials, we are asked to rule on many things that have minimum consequences to the game (all fashion police items immediately come to mind.) And the rules continually evolve so that something that is forbidden one year is legal the next. The NCAA just changed this rule so that subs after intermission must report by the final horn, not the warning horn. Maybe the NFHS will make that change next year.

Last season I had one game where the scorekeeper sounded the horn as we were starting the second period. She told me that a couple of players on the visiting team had not checked in. The visiting coach had no idea who ended the quarter...but the scorekeeper had written the numbers in the book. Same thing at half-time. By now, the visiting coach was really upset -- and said she had never had this problem before. Well...I had never seen this before, and had never had a scorekeeper so diligent. I surely don't keep track of the numbers of the 10 players who left the court at the end of the quarter. I don't know any official that does.

Rule 3-3-1a.
Casebook 3.3.1 Situation A.

See also Casebook 3.3.1 Situation D, (b) which is nearly identical to the question you ask.

Those are normal substitution situations. In the situation we are discussing we are already violating those provisions due to an injury.

Based on "3.3.6 Sit D" I think this is a situation where we as officials need to be proactive. We should be letting the coach know that by the warning horn to begin the next quarter we need to know whether or not the player will still be participating and advise the coach that a sub needs to report by the warning horn if the injured player cannot continue.

If the coach waits until after the warning horn and then sends a sub to the table for the injured player then personally I'm going to allow the other team to sub.

You are reaching beyond your authority.

Sitch: A1 is injured in the middle of the quarter and the coach is beckoned onto the court. Coach requests and is granted a time out while the trainer tends to the injury. Immediately before the warning horn to end the time out, the coach sends a sub to report for A1. Team B cannot get a sub to the table in time to "counter" this player because the warning horn has sounded.

Are you still going to allow Team B to sub? No. Team A used the rule to properly replace a player. There is no requirement that the sub report any earlier than before the warning horn.

Team A got it's sub to the table prior to the warning horn, so again this is a normal substitution situation. I don't know why you keep referencing normal substituion situations. :confused:

We are talking about AFTER the warning horn has sounded, teams are coming out of the huddle, and then all of a sudden Coach A sends a sub to the table because A1 is still injured.

Starter A2 is injured during warmups. Coach replaces A2 with A6, even though there is less than 10 minutes before the game starts. Rule says there is no penalty.

Can Team B replace its starter to counter?

Rule citation, please.

Again, this is a normal substitution as it is specifically addressed in the rulebook; it is not related to our situation being discussed.

Was His Eagle Sense Tingling ???
 

Was he our friendly, neighborhood, eagle?

5 seconds left, timeout, no subs. As the teams break the huddles (after the horn), point guard A1 trips over A6 and sprains his ankle. A coach switches last second tactics, and puts his 6-9 workhorse, A5, for the last play. B coach (out of TOs) wants to put in his 6-8 defender, whom he had sat to defend A's last second play.

Another play to consider...

Timeout.....warning horn. As the teams are returning to the court and before the ball becomes live, A3 calls one of the officials something inappropriate and earns a T. Before any FTs are taken, can coach B send his ace shooter in to shoot the FTs? Can coach A take A3 out?

In my game...

Yes and Yes.

Bit it is after the warning horn!!!! :eek:;)

looking for problems you don't have...
 

Bottom line..... Player is hurt.... dead ball...... end of period or not.... prior to putting ball into play, if there is a player at the scorers table, your going to wave them in, if the coach requests a time out, your going to grant it. Teams are not "required" to have five players on the court. What am I missing??? sometimes people read too much into the rules instead of using common sense. Only issue I see here is the possible delay of game, should the team with the hurt player not take the court when prompted by the horn. after a second verbal request, in most cases the coach breaks the huddle or calls the time out. In closing......even though the rules state 1 minute between quarters... in the 1,000's of games I have done, i have NEVER timed the breaks between quarters... half time yes, quarters no.
When all else fails use common sense....in adding.... warning horns are hit and miss... in as varsity game, you might have consistency in the horns, any other level, horns are suspect, if not not existant.

1) Teams are required to have 5 players, if they have 5 available. See 3.1.1 for example

2) The time between quarters is always timed here at the varsity level, and will be done at lower levels if you ask them to.

3) Tell the table at the lower levels to give you wa warning horn. Then count to 15 and ask for a second horn.

Bob already addressed this, but I want to add a couple things.
In another thread, you said 15-20% of your games are high school. In yet another thread you lead us to believe you work varsity games. 20% of thousands would be at least 400. Are you saying in 400 high school games, you've never worked a game where they've properly timed the quarter breaks?

And this crap about reading too much into the rules is often code for, "I played for 20 years. I know enough about the rules, I don't need to read the book."

I agree.. by "required" i meant there are situations where less than five are allowed. injury, disq, etc.. I see where that was not effectively conveyed. I concur and apologize for not stating it clearly.

HS varsity horns are a non-issue.
conveying warning horns in "other" levels...can/could probably do so, but most scorer's have enough on their plate...LOL IMO.....
Again HS jv fre,soph... sure

Or code for "I'm new to the scene and I don't know how you guys survived without my insight and guidance before I popped up." :rolleyes:

Even with levels below varsity in high school, it's not that hard to get that minute between quarters timed. You're doing the exact same thing you would do if a team called a full timeout...put 60 seconds on the board and get a warning horn with 15 seconds left.

In my years of officiating Entering season #9 (1,000's of games)for clarification. I ref any and all basketball, all levels, all year long. I have done probably 200-300 HS(sanctioned state HIgh school) level games, if I had to guess, and only Varsity gets it right...JV fresh/Soph not so much..... if in one given season you do 300-400 games roughly 20-50 at most are varsity...leaving roughly 75% NOt clocked/scored correctly. I gather the fact that most refrences here are HS basketball.... The point I keep trying to make.. is that HS basketball is a small fraction of the basketball officiated. Frankly, I don't think I know any basketball official that "ONLY DOES HS VARSITY" basketball. I am sure there are some out there.

In closing... "I haven't played for twenty years, and don't need to read the book." I played through HS... Coached 3 boys, all grown....Have been Officiating for going into season #9 and do more games in one year than most do in 2-3 ... because I work almost every day/night year round doing any game, including adult rec/litttle kids...that no else wants to do, or are too good to do. I also Officiate Football/Baseball/Lacrosse. I read the rules all the time. Sounds to me you only do HS and have removed yourself for the most part from the rest of basketball, which is where most of the basketball world exists. Because you sound shocked that timing of quarters doesn't happen. In my world timing of quarters and warning buzzers are a luxury only afforded to Varsity HS ball. Maybe it is a function of geography??? Regardless I find interesting, the curt tone, and wonder Why the angst??
I come on here to hopefully learn a thing or two I don't know or misunderstand, in order to improve, and yet get my integrity questioned.

I'm guessin, you are a real pleasure as a partner on the court.

I don't care if I am right or wrong...I just want to get it right

footnote.... have done roughly 1000 games in the last 18 months alone.

No, I work other levels. But you said you'd "never" worked a game where the quarter breaks were timed. I see now that was simply hyperbole.

I know how it works in AAU, YMCA, etc. I also know, however, that around here, all high school subvarsity levels (F, S, JV) have fairly competent timers that are quite capable of properly timing the quarter breaks.

Footnote: no one cares. It's not as impressive as you may think.

MUST be geographical...can't find a decent scorer outside of the big HSchools
around here.. Yesterday I had to throw the 2 scorers at the table out and have them replaced for fighting...LOL

That applies to all the schools around here, 1A to 5A.

Yeah, not uncommon in off season ball when you've got opposing fans working the table.

not trying to be impressive, just qualifying I'm not a rookie and maybe 9 seasons isn't alot, but Nothing beats court time...and in some cases this is a potential liability.

How those knees feeling?
 

1000 games? By my math, that's about 1.8 games every day...EVERY DAY...for 18 months...I realize many of these are probably stacks of weekend AAU tourney games etc..but that's a lot of miles. No wonder you don't want to read into the rules too much!

I eat ibuprofen like m&m's..lol I started reffing to get out from behind a desk, and get excersize. I figure I have a "few" years left, a couple at least doing HS. What is it with all the old goats that need to go but don't (I am an old goat..but I get there and try give the kids a good game-)

Or because we have a life outside of officiating. :rolleyes:;)

touche!!