I had an unusal play at an AAU game this past weekend. Here is the scenario : A1 was dribbling in front court and was fouled by B2.I reported the foul and asked (the 15 year old cheerleader that was keeping the book) if we were in the bonus yet, to which she said "no". So we put the ball back in play with A1 inbounding to A2 and shot a three pointer that was good. After B1 grabbed the ball but before the ball was inbounded the horn starts going off and the score keeper is beckoning me to the table. I walk over and the scorekeeper (who really should not have been put in a position to keep the book) shook as she told me she had made a mistake and that the last team B foul was actually the 7th team foul. I looked at her and grinned as I thought of how I was going to break it to the team B coach that were were not only going to award team A the three pointer, I was also going to have to give A1 the bonus free throws with all players cleared off the lane...(A1 made both free throws) but the good news was he would still get the ball back for a backcourt throw in....I tried explaining the rule (correctable error)to team B's coach to no avail, he thought I was trying to "rook" him. I listened to all I could before I had to stick team A's coach with a T. I later told my partner that I wished he had come over to help me out with team B's coach and he says "I wasn't sure if we had it right either !" . My question is, How do you guys difuse a coach in this type situation and did we get it right? I really hated to do it(stick the coach), but after hearing how terrible I was for 4 trips up and down the court after he got the ball back, I figured enough was enough....

Sounds like you were OK in how you handled it up to a point. Explain the ruling to the coach, let him gripe a bit, then tell him that is the ruling, we're playing ball now.

Depending on your mood at this point, you have some options:

If he is still griping, either a warning "Coach, the play is over, I don't want to hear anymore about it", then stick him if he refuses to give up.

Or after explaining the ruling he is still going, stick him now.

I definitely would not let him gripe about it for four trips up and down the floor, especially at the AAU level.

I also wanted to comment on something else in your post. You need to handle this discussion with the coach yourself. Don't call your partner over to help you. This leaves nobody watching the other players on the floor. It could also give the coach an opportunity to play you against your partner if he senses that one of you is unsure about the ruling.

Not much you can do if the coach won't take your word that you are applying the rule correctly. Sounds like you:

1) tried to explain it,
2) then got away,
3) then let him whine a little,
4) then had enough,
5) then banged him.

I think 1-3 were handled perfectly. He got a raw deal, so let him moan about it a little. Fine. #4 happens to everybody. You reach a limit, and that's also good. You can't let him moan forever.

Once you get to 4, though, I think that you have to communicate to the coach that you've heard enough. Yes, you certainly are within the rules to stick him without warning. But in a case where it's just general whining or complaining with nothing that really goes over the line, you need to let him know that #5 is coming before you give it to him.

It's as simple as the "stop sign" gesture and "Coach, that's enough!" If he doesn't heed it, then fine, bang him. But if you really would rather diffuse it, then you need to at least try a firm "stop it".

Just my opinion. You needed to take care of business, and you did it. I have absolutely NO problem with that (especially in AAU). My only suggestion would be to give him a chance to back off the ledge before you let him jump.

Chuck

Jeez, Andy said everything I did and did it a minute faster. Grrrrrr.

As soon as B1 grabbed the ball after the made 3pointer,the ball became alive-Rule6-1-2(b). The error is no longer correctable,as per Rule2-10-2.

doesn't this error have to be recognized during the first dead ball after the clock has properly started? Didn't that dead ball period end when B had the ball for their throw-in? Is this still a correctable error?

I also wanted to comment on something else in your post. You need to handle this discussion with the coach yourself. Don't call your partner over to help you. This leaves nobody watching the other players on the floor. It could also give the coach an opportunity to play you against your partner if he senses that one of you is unsure about the ruling.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Andy, thanks for the comments, I guess what I was trying to say was that I wish the other official would have taken a little heat off me. We did switch/rotate to where he was table-side closest to the coach and I was opposite (as I felt getting away from the coach would difuse the matter) after I explained the rule to him and he started getting argumenative. So I ended up busting the coach from across the floor (which I hate doing) because my partner didn't know if we had it right and felt we should just let the coach vent. I was the veteran guy...maybe I should have just stayed table side and maybe I could have given the STOP sign and maybe avoided the T.

Yes. Yes. No.

thanks JR...I knew the answers to my questions...just wanted TRBR to think about them and discover his partner's reluctance was well founded

I figured you did.I was trying to make the same point as you-again. :D

Jurassic- team B had not gotten out of bounds when the horn was blown - just because they grab the ball after it goes through the hoop does not make it at the disposal of the thrower...or does it?

[Edited by tnroundballref on Apr 11th, 2003 at 03:56 PM]

Check out casebook play 6.1.2SitB-including the Comment. The ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in.Getting the ball OOB doesn't really matter to the status of the ball.

RndBallRef --

You don't have to take away the 3-pointer: in fact, you shouldn't! see 2-10-5. "Points scored, consumed time and additional activity, which may occur prior to the recognition of an error, shall not be nullified." Just shoot the shot or shots with the lane cleared, and then go back to the POI. P.S. This is the only POI in NFHS mechanics.

One thing I have tried a couple of times, when I was clearly at fault, that works okay if you do it right (I'm not very good at it yet, but improving), is to admit to this coach that you totally blew it, and you're sorry, but there's nothing you can do now to "fix" it. "Coach, it's my fault, I didn't check carefully with the table and now I am costing you three points. All I can do is apologize and promise it won't happen again." Then, as Chuck pointed out, you get away. Then if he still whines, give it one more try: "Coach, I goofed, I apologized, I won't do it again. Let's drop it now." Or, "Coach, I've heard enough. I goofed, I apoloziged and now it's past." Then one more word gets the T. But if you do it right, you don't ever get to the one more word part.

Juulie,taking away the 3 pointer isn't really the issue.The issue is whether you CAN go back and shoot the FT's. By rule,you CAN'T because it is no longer a correctible error after the ball became alive on the throw-in following the dead ball on the made basket.

You have a point. In most cases, the ball is not at the disposal of the throwing team until they have the ball OOB for the throwin. However, if the official feels they've had sufficient time to do so but are, for what ever reason, stalling, it should be considered to be at their disposal and the 5 second count started. At that instant, the defense may no longer call timeout and this correctable error would be no longer correctable.

Agree with JR, don't think this error is correctable.

My interpretation of the rules is that dead ball period (albeit a short one) ends when other team grabs it.

Count the 3, apologize profusely to coach A and resume. Short lecture to cheerleader girl afterwards about importance of double-checking the foul count.

As for all the other stuff, sounds to me like you handled it fine.

You have a point. In most cases, the ball is not at the disposal of the throwing team until they have the ball OOB for the throwin. However, if the official feels they've had sufficient time to do so but are, for what ever reason, stalling, it should be considered to be at their disposal and the 5 second count started. At that instant, the defense may no longer call timeout and this correctable error would be no longer correctable. [/B][/QUOTE]Camron,one question?

A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball but hasn't taken it out of bounds. A1 calls TO after B1 has grabbed the ball,but before he takes it OOB. Would you grant the TO?

I agree that it wasn't the question, but just pointing out that since he DID correct the error, he shouldn't have taken away the three. Just so he knows for sure next year, when his partner gets it wrong!

I agree that it wasn't the question, but just pointing out that since he DID correct the error, he shouldn't have taken away the three. Just so he knows for sure next year, when his partner gets it wrong! [/B][/QUOTE]Now you got me confused.In his original post,he said that he DID award the 3 pointer,as well as correcting the error to shoot the FT.

In which of the following situations should the correction
be made ?
1. coach calls a time out as soon as the 3 point shot goes
through the net.
No line-up, shoot f.t.'s, no charged T.O. ????????

2. coach yells out " bonus " before the 3 point shot is taken.
Stop the play after the 3 point shot goes in,and make the correction ???????

First, JR is correct. This isn't correctable. If the thrower has the ball, it's at his disposal and it's live. He doesn't even have to have possession of it. If it's available to him, it's at his dispoal. (4--4-7d)

Award the TO and shoot the FTs afterward.

Quote:

2. coach yells out " bonus " before the 3 point shot is taken. Stop the play after the 3 point shot goes in,and make the correction ???????

The coach yelling "Bonus!" doesn't mean a thing. If you stop the game before the ball becomes live, you can correct it. If not, you can't.

BBRef: Thanks for the reply.

What I am really asking here is : Does the coach need to call a time-out ? Or would you go and check the book after the three point shot if the coach alerted you to the fact that the bonus was missed simply by shouting "bonus" before the shot was taken ?

Now you got me confused.In his original post,he said that he DID award the 3 pointer,as well as correcting the error to shoot the FT. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, JR, it was me that was confused. I read the original post wrong. At least I got the rule right, though...

Two comments

1. I am not familiar enough with NF (or NCAA) rules to jump into the fray, however JR's point seems good, plus it gets you off the hook without further punishing Team B. That is easily said after the fact.

2. In FIBA, there is a provision for this specific incidence: Team A gets possession rather than FTs. If Team A scores a field goal on the ensuing possession, the error is no longer correctable.

Jay

ooops
 

Sorry, Yes ended up sticking team B's coach.....but from the sounds of it...I goofed and he had good reason to complain.

If he goes to the table and requests TO, prior to the second live ball, the correction can be made.

If the table notifies the officials prior to the second live ball, the correction can be made.

B1 had ball, but before throw in. Sounds like @ the disposal to me. In which case that is not a correctable error. But I'm sure like most cases, "you had to have been there" As for handling the coach, admit the error and get the hell away from him.

I see the "scorekeeper" issue in almost every AAU/YBOA tournament we play in. And, its not necessarily with our team. Host teams use kids because, unlike the adults, they'll hang out at the gym, and they'll do the work for free, or for some token handouts from the concession stand.

Basically, two things refs can do:

1) Referees need to let governing bodies and host teams know the importance of using adults (although they're not always great either) as scorekeepers and scoreboard operators.
2) When working with "inexperienced" scorekeepers, the referees need to stay right on top of the details. At every time out and quarter end, a referee should be designated to go over the score and foul situations for both teams, and ensure the scoreboard and book are in agreement.

I posted this differently, because I didn't want to bury it in my previous post.

Semi-final game yesterday, at OUR tournament. At some point in the game we discover two fouls have been assessed to one of our players who hasn't played. My guess is, the scorekeeper was probably supposed to give the fouls to the person above or below, but, I don't know. The gym was very small, and very loud.

Our coach wanted the fouls removed from the player. Of course, that didn't happen.

BTW, final score was 100-91 (8 min quarters! - we lost).

Camron,one question?

A1 scores. B1 grabs the ball but hasn't taken it out of bounds. A1 calls TO after B1 has grabbed the ball,but before he takes it OOB. Would you grant the TO? [/B][/QUOTE]

YES.

If B is not stalling, I start the count when they have the ball, are OOB, and are facing inbounds. That is when I consider them to have it at their disposal. They are in a position from which they can make a legal throwin. If they are not in a location/stance that would reasonably allow them to throw the ball in legally, it is not at their disposal.

Cameron, that was my thought when I made the call. I was under the impression that a player must be out of bounds and ready to throw the ball into play to be considered to have the ball "at his disposal".

Avoid this problem if possible . .
 

and it was in this case. This is a situation where I would make sure A didn't get the FTs on top of the 3 they just scored. A got the ball, they got 3 points instead of the front end of a 1 and 1 - if it is questionable, ball was at disposal and it ain't correctable. Problem solved. Play ball - ball goes to B on baseline, and they can run the baseline.

Re: Avoid this problem if possible . .
 

Yeah, but A still got screwed out of a 1&1, didn't they?

I'm thinking unless B has clearly started the inbounds pass (I'm counting, that is) then we're gonna shoot, & I'm gonna tell coach B to live with it.

Great point Dan ! Just because it doesn't seem "fair" to team B, doesen't mean it's ok to ignore the rule Coach ! I think team A's coach (if he knew the rule) would question why we aren't going to shoot the front end of the bonus (even though they scored the trey), especially if we are in a tight game. And when I have to tell him (Team A's coach)that the ball was at the disposal of team B (even if they grab the ball but are not out of bounds)I think he is gonna flip too !!!!!

A scored off a possession that they had because the 1 and 1 wasn't shot. Now B has ball in hand, and we have to decide if the best thing is to award the 1 and 1 or to consider ball at disposal of B.

Had you originally known it was 1 and 1, you would have put A at the line and they would have been in a position to get 0-3 points (on average). In my experience, you can miss the front end and B get the rebound on the low end (0 points), or hit the front end, miss the second and get a quick putback on the normal high end (3 points). Granted, many other infinite possibilities exist, but in all the games I have had this year, this is the common range of expected results. If you think about all of your 1 and 1s in the past year, the average points scored is between 1 and 2.

Instead of giving the 1 and 1 (for and average of 1-2 points), you gave possession to A and they got more than what the average team achieves from a 1 and 1 by scoring a 3 point basket. So you are hardly hurting A if you do not grant them the 1 and 1 AFTER they already scored the 3 pointer. But are you violating the rules by doing so?

Even if A knows the correctable error rule, you aren't violating it because clearly you can consider ball to be at disposal as soon as it was picked up - many refs here say that they do. Even if you wouldn't normally consider it to be at disposal, this is a case where a little elastic might be nice. And if you think about the most even resolution for both teams, giving B the ball gives you that relatively fair resolution. And most coaches won't know the intricacies of correctable error, meaning that Team A coach will rarely argue for a 1 and 1 in place of a 3 (which is what most coaches would think the trade-off is). Coach B may be more upset not knowing that the option is giving A the 3 and the FTs.

Coach, here is where you and I disagree. I don't feel my job as an official is to make things even.I will let a coach tell me ONE time what the fouls count is (come on Ref it's 7-2 on the fouls) and I will let him know he is questioning my integrity and that is something I will simply not tolerate from a coach. It is my job to apply the rule(s) fairly to both teams. It was my position that B did in fact get screwed due to scorer not alerting us of the situation, but it was not my place to turn around and screw Team A just to even things up.

So your choice now is to let the coach flip or to call the rule correctly. What are you gonna do?

On top of the rule and casebook citations that I've given so far,you can also take a look at Casebook play 9-2-2SitC. Note that the thrower-in in this case NEVER went OOB. Note that the ruling also says that it WAS at the thrower-in's disposal!!

Guys,you can't make up your own rules to try and be Mr. Niceguy.Remember that if you wanna help out team A in this case,you gotta screw team B to do it!

Hey coach, 2.10 is there to tell us what happens when a team does not get what it earned. If B1 has the ball at his disposal then it's too late, but what we're discussing now is exactly how you define "at the disposal". I don't have the luxury to calculate the odds before deciding what to do next. Now, I don't recall if this happened in this play, but if coach A came to the table then not giving him his 1&1 means he loses a timeout. Fair? Finally, (and I've said this before) you never know who's watching you - could be you blow an opportunity by being nice to coach B.

At some point the dead ball after a goal becomes a live ball. I believe the casebook helps us determine when that happens. I don't believe it says with certainty the ball is live as B1 grabs it. Camron has already said this twice.

At some point the dead ball after a goal becomes a live ball. I believe the casebook helps us determine when that happens. I don't believe it says with certainty the ball is live as B1 grabs it. Camron has already said this twice. [/B][/QUOTE]Dan,the ball becomes alive as soon as it's at the disposal of the thrower-rule 4-1-2b. The ball is at the disposal of the thrower when it is available to a player after a goal-rule 4-4-7d.If the player grabs the ball,it would be ludicrous to say that it's not at that player's disposal,or available to him.All of the casebook plays that I quoted refer to situations where the ball does NOT go OOB,but is still considered to be at the throwing team's disposal-and thus is LIVE.There is no language in the book,that I know of,that will let you rule otherwise in this particular case.

How in the process of scoring 3 points is A getting screwed? A scored off the possession you erroneously gave them due to poor information from the table, and in the process got about twice what they normally could expect from a 1 and 1 (which they should have gotten). They also ended up with about the max they could reasonably expect from a 1 and 1 - so they are fine. Knowing that A has scored, and having time to think (this is not a bang-bang kind of call), it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that B had possession of the ball and therefore it was at disposal. Yes you can argue whether or not you would normally rule this to be "at disposal," but this isn't the normal situation.

And no, this is not the same as a coach wanting an equal amount of fouls called. Fouls committed are under the control of the team in question. Scorekeeper screw-ups are not. They are an external problem that should be managed with the least impact to both teams, where legally possible. And I have shown you a way to accomplish this in a manner that only the most anal of observers would fault you for doing so.

Coach, I am going to have to ask you to step back into your coaching box.

Thanks for asking . . .
 

but I am going to have to politely decline, trb :)

Dan,the ball becomes alive as soon as it's at the disposal of the thrower-rule 4-1-2b. The ball is at the disposal of the thrower when it is available to a player after a goal-rule 4-4-7d.If the player grabs the ball,it would be ludicrous to say that it's not at that player's disposal,or available to him.All of the casebook plays that I quoted refer to situations where the ball does NOT go OOB,but is still considered to be at the throwing team's disposal-and thus is LIVE.There is no language in the book,that I know of,that will let you rule otherwise in this particular case. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, let's see. We agree that the ball becomes alive when it's at the disposal of the team throwing in. However, the 5 second count begins when the ball is at the disposal (NFHS 4.41.3 NCAA 4.64.3). As a practical matter, isn't it ludicrous to start your count as the player grabs the ball after a made FG/FT?

I'll say it again, if I'm not counting the ball is dead.