Since we've been enjoying the women's NCAA games over the last few days, here's a story about the pros. I thought it might be of interest.

http://espn.go.com/wnba/news/2003/0408/1535722.html

Asking for too much.
 

I think there might not be a WNBA if they keep asking for too much. Whether they like it or not, they need to get their attendence up (which may never happen to total satisfaction) or they will have nothing to demand. They will have to play overseas again.

Peace

Rut,
I couldn't agree with you more. "Good will" only translates into so much of a financial commitment from the NBA. That's the problem with operating at, essentially, the charity of others, rather than establishing an operation that is profitable in its own right.

Adam

I'm not sure I agree with your characterization. This ain't "goodwill" or "charity", it's a genuine attempt by the NBA to expand their market. At some point they need to see a return on their investment or they'll pull the plug. But once they pull the plug they will have abandoned 50% of the population they can expand into, in effect. It seems to me they're not ready to pull the plug yet but they certainly seem ready to reduce the amount of cash they're pumping in to keep the operation going. Also looks like they're starting to play hardball with the players salaries.

There is a reason Oprah is rich as hell.
 

Kind of hard to abandon a population that does not show up in the first place.

If women supported their own sports, this would never be an issue. But the fact is that many men watch all kind of sports 22 hours in a day in their underwear and a beer and sleep the other two hours. Women just do not like, nor support Women's sports. Women in this country pay more attention to Oprah, then they do sports. And she does not make it a habit to talk about sports on a daily, weekly or monthly basis.

Peace

Re: There is a reason Oprah is rich as hell.
 

Fact remains that there are only certain places the NBA can go to increase revenue, the men who don't support it today will most likely never support it. Revenue from US women & an international audience are 2 obvious areas to invest in. Whether the WNBA investment is a success or not depends on exactly what David Stern expected to get out of it, but I would expect that attracting *young girls* is a large part of the measurement. Probably much more important than attracting "the Oprah crowd". And the fact remains, once the NBA folds the WNBA they have effectively written off the female population as a source of additional revenue.

But the problem is that women aren't supporting the WNBA. They tried putting WNBA games on lifetime, a cable network targeted to females and the ratings for the games were horrible. The attendence at the games are even worse. Women just don't support women's sports like men support men's sports.

And how do we know this? Because the NBA invested $$$ into it. And I'll say it again, I believe the NBA is after little girls, not their mommies. Supporting sports is largely a cultural thing, IMO. Most women today don't support sports because they were not brought up to do so.

Check Out the Mystics
 

The Washington Mystics manage to put on a great show for the whole family. I've only been able to get to one game since I live way out in to boon docks away from town, but I'd much rather go to a Mystics game than any NBA game. It is a fun time, the prices are more reasonable than the NBA, and the TEAM basketball is better. I believe the Mystics are one of the few WNBA teams making money. My biggest observation (from a single sample) about the crowd was that there weren't dads with sons in the stands. That may be asking too much.

But for how long does the NBA continue to pour millions of dollars into a WNBA that keeps losing money? 5 years??? 10 years??? 20 years???

To get the kids you have to get to the parents also. It's going to be hard for little Susie to become a fan of the WNBA when mom and dad don't ever take her to a game or never watch a game at home.

Hey, it ain't your money, don't take it personally! :)

Bottom line is this: there's a huge investment being made by the NBA which they obviously expect will pay off. And just as obviously they have a timetable & roadmap that will help them decide how their investment is going. There are probably less than a dozen people on the planet who know what their strategy is, how long they are willing to wait & if they are on track. Bargaining with the player's union is something that's gonna happen regarldess, maybe the player's demands will be the straw that kills the league but I doubt it. We'll see! :)

It's a reasonable question. And it depends on whether or not you buy that it makes long-term sense. I think one place they went wrong that the ABL had it right is the places the WNBA located teams. ABL picked towns with good womens programs and solid womens attendance figures. NBA is going to NBA markets, which are not necessarily the right women's markets, at least not until the league is more established.

Go to Connecticut and Tennessee and see if you can't get more fans out. They pack them in for women's games there, and the fans know all the players. They follow the women's game, so they would be more interested than the markets that have no viable college programs.

Not our money.
 

That is a very good point. Not a single person has invested money in this league (that I am aware of) is here. The people that are NBA owners, did not get there by making bad investments. If the think they have made a bad investment or that the investment is not going to work, they can and will pull the plug. And all they have to go on is what is happening at those games right now. Hardly anyone attends the games and hardly anyone watches the games. For God sake, the games are played in the summer when there is 100 other things to do. The media never talks about it. I am sure the NCAA Finals got a lot of people watching, but that is basically one game during one weekend, what was happening the rest of the year. I know just at the HS level when they would have a double header with a Boy's varsity game, then follow it by Girl's varsity game, after the Boy's game, everyone would leave practically. It just shows the interest level of the two sports right there.

Peace

jrut
Good points. And you have stated before that in your area, the girls ball is way sub-standard. That matters too. In our area, the good irls HS teams can outdraw the boys if the boys are sub par. HS playoffs were playing to packed gyms, and regular season games with two quality opponents come close to selling out. And of course, my area is the same market that supports the Mystics. Just a better female sports fan base here than in other locales. If that doesn't change, WNBA will not have a viable national market, which is ultimately essential for a pro sports league to survive.

One bottom line in sports is quality. If you can put a good game out there, fans will follow. If you stink the place up, the fans stop paying (for men and women). The women's game has only recently stepped up it's quality, and continues to improve. If the women can continue to improve the caliber of play at the highest level, they may see some improvement in attendance.

I think the NBA is willing to subsidize (for the moment)
because the WNBA has abandoned the original operating model, and is now able to expand into NON-NBA markets.
They knew going into the change, that it would be a rough transition. If THIS model doesn't work, then you may see the NBA call it a day.

Not the issue.
 

Girl's basketball is always sub-standard to Boy's basketball. Or at least in the way it is judged by the point the people that spend time trying to watch it. We just had one of the best player's in the country win a State Championship. Especially when it is judged up against playing on the rim or above it.

But this is my opinion.

Peace

Some things never change
 

jrut
I grant you a point, and you have to go off the deep end. If your statement was true, then Churchill HS boys would sell out every game and the girls games would be played in front of an empty gym. But the boys sometimes draw less than the girls because the girls won the state championsip and the boys won 3 games. IN YOUR AREA, you may have this issue of girls ball always being substandard to boys (or IN YOUR OWN MIND, you may just have this perception). It is not an issue here, and that is why attendance is good for the girls games, and better for winning girls team than for losing boys teams. Fans back a winner, and come back again and again because the games are great.

Ask Tennessee or U-Conn fans if the men are superior in their locale. The women rule there. They don't just sell tickets at these schools for NCAA tournament games. Tennessee and U-Conn averaged over 13,000 fans per regular season home game - including cupcakes. That outdraws 3 NBA teams with their higher caliber men's ball. They either have an exceptional number of seriously impaired individuals in Tennessee and Connecticut, or the fans follow the quality.

They're actually doing that - Connecticut is supposed to have a WNBA team within a year or two.

They will never change.
 

What are you talking about? Do you even know? I am not talking about every single program in the country. I am talking about the general trend in boy's and girl's basketball across this country. This is not about one area or one program.


Again, you are one of those individuals than gets upset because someone makes a point opposite of the one you hold. This has nothing to do with individual programs. I can show you a few "individual" programs <b>in my area</b> where the girls out draw the boys. But that is the exception, not the rule. And if it was the rule, the WNBA would not be struggling.

Individual programs. How many other D1 Women's programs that can make that claim? And on top of that, you picked two of the most successful women's programs in history to make that point. And UConn Men's had a following long before they became a national power. And that program only won a single National Championship.

The issue is not about one or two progams, the issue is whether or not they can sell the entire league and draw interest outside of a couple of places. If they cannot do that, the drive behind the UConn or Tennessee is not going to save it. Terrosie (sp?) is college basketball's best player, and I can tell you that the average fan has no clue or could care less about who she is. She will be a WNBA Player some day (if the league does not fold before then) and I bet the average sports fan would not recognize her if she walked right by them. Holesclaw from Tennessee at the height of hear fame when she was at Tennessee was in an airport and not anyone but my officiating friend recognized her. At the time she was the best player and no autographs, no "yooooooo!!!!" comments, everyone just left her alone. The WNBA need the average fan to follow their sport. They cannot even get the hardcore, everyday basketball fan to care. It is not anyone's particular area that is going to save the WNBA. If they cannot get National Television money to support the league, they are in big trouble.

Peace

Mark, in the article that I linked at the beginning, I think it said that the Orlando franchise was going to play at Mohegan Sun this year, if there is a season.

Chuck

Re: Not the issue.
 

You said always. I provided numerous exceptions. That means your overstatement is not true. That was my first point. Thanks for taking so long to admit that there are some quality girls and womens programs that draw as many, or more than, their boys/mens programs.

My point was simply that quality programs sell tickets and keep a fan base. Increase the depth and breadth of quality in the women's game, which I am admitting needs to occur, and you can expand the fan base. Keep it where it is, and attendance will remain where it is.

Re: Re: Not the issue.
 

Who said there was not any girl/women's programs that draw? Are you a teacher? I sure hope you teach them to comprehend things that people say. If I tell you there is one soccer program in the country that has a great following, does that mean that soccer will survive at the professional level in the United States? As I said if Tennessee or UConn has wonderful programs, it is not going to save the Utah franchise or the Dallas franchise or the league for that matter. I guess that is why they started marketing the women as sex objects, because the game is so good.

One or two francises are not going to save a league that is not making money across the board. The TV contracts are what drive professional leagues today. If they can bearly have a .3 rating (which is absolutely horrible) on network that caters towards women. And if Stern pulls the plug on the season, because a bunch of players do not understand their place or marketablity, then let it fold. Remember the ABL? That was in successful college markets, I guess that is why they did not make it through their second season. :rolleyes:

Peace

JRUT
I only quibbled with your statement of ALWAYS. I hope if you teach, you understand the difference between usually and always. Always means without exception. You now grant exceptions, therefore my point that you saw fit to argue - girls ball is not always subordinate to boys, although it frequently is.

As for ABL, it didn't have the financial backing that the WNBA had, and I think they also went through the roof on player salaries. The WNBA worked to put them out of business, and succeeded. But I think backing an ABL with NBA cash, and not making them compete with WNBA, would make the whole thing more viable. Who knows?

You are right that the current market won't sustain the WNBA, another point I readily grant. I also said that it is hard to say whether further investment will pay off, or whether it is already time to give up. I think that the success of the Mystics, even without winning championships, might be cause to analyze their success factors and try to align with those factors across the league. One of those factors, IMO, is the presence of a strong women's sports market. When successful teams can't draw fans, maybe they need to be in a different market.

The NFL left LA, UCLA doesn't sell out home football games against marquee opponents - maybe it's not the place to put a football team or a women's basketball team. And maybe other places that do well with men's sports are the wrong place as well, while Storrs Connecticut may sell more tickets than major pro men's markets. Just a thought.

I have a dream.....
 

Yes, Women's basketball is always subserviante to Men's or Boy's basketball in my opinion. If it was not, then they would not be trying to market one dunk (Lisa Leslie) on the level they they did. I am not talking about attendance.


They did not have to try very hard. I mean the CBA came back. :rolleyes:


Let me ask you this, who are they going to play against if the rest of the league cannot make money? I guess maybe they can play New York and LA, because I think they make some money too.


We can all dream. But the Rams left and thrive in St. Louis (I am a fan BTW). The NFL thrives because of their TV deal and they actually sell tickets. That is a novel idea. If this had to do with the a league and not gender we would not be talking about this. I said the same thing when the ABA 2000 started and it has folded or dropped almost completely off the map. And folks like yourself said, "it is a great idea, it will work you will see." Cannot even find anything on the net about it. Give it some time, the WNBA will be in the same situation, if the players do not wake up and realize they are not the NBA. I am sure we will all be talking about WNBA draft and the who the Washinton Mystics will add to their "great" collection of players. :rolleyes:

Peace

Forget gender
 

It is not the issue. This is strictly an investment in a potential sports market that clearly does not adequately support the current product. But why look at gender? You can ask the same questions of MLS and WUSA, two other major money losers, or for any pro franchise that is losing money in its market (like half the NHL teams). How much loss is too much loss, how many losing years are too many losing years, when do you throwin the towel?

Currently, a group of individuals thinks it is worth the losses because the gains may come in the future. I am not in a postion to tell them they are wrong. It is their money, and they will decide when the deal is a complete loser versus being a temporary loss but a potential long-term profit. I would suggest that if they want to make money, they look at where money is being made and figure out if that money can be made in other locales (either the ones they are in with a better marketing plan, or more lucrative ones, or a combo) or if it is time to fold their hand.

I am willing to bet that lots of people spend a lot of time doing this very analysis if they are serious about their investment. These people have this kind of money for a reason. They aren't always right, but they do know how to do market analysis and they know how to make money.

Not my money.
 

I do not know the answer to that one, it is not my money. So personally, I do not care what they do with their money.

OK.......it is their money. If they want to invest it into a losing stock, that is their business. I did not make the model for this league. All I have ever said, if the players keep trying to demand money that is not there, they are the ones that will lose the most. With all things being equal, the WNBA is not outselling the NBA teams in the same markets. And that very thing is apart of their decision making adventure. And if they pulled the plug, it is not going to be because we discussed it here.

Peace

This is a couple days late, but I thought I'd post it anyway:

NEW YORK, April 14, 2003 – The WNBA today announced that due to the absence of a collective bargaining agreement with the WNBA Players Association the 2003 WNBA Draft, scheduled for April 16, will not be held.

The WNBA has set a deadline of April 18 to reach an agreement with the players. If no agreement is reached by that date, the 2003 WNBA season will not proceed.

I saw this in the paper, too. There go my vacation plans...

Yes, Virginia, there is a WNBA.

http://espn.go.com/wnba/news/2003/0425/1544474.html

Their draft was held on the 25th, I believe (Karl Malone's daughter was the third pick overall) and games begin on May 6. So maybe you can still keep those vacation plans, Juulie! :)

No WNBA League Pass?
 

There is a rumor going around on some of the fan boards that there will be no more NBA/WNBA League Pass on cable TV. I called my cable company and the customer service rep hadn't heard anything about this. But then someone else on the board got an e-mail from the same cable company (in the same town), who said that NBA-TV is no longer doing the League Pass. Confusing. Do any of you know what is really going on? I would really like to know.

Thanks!