Why are college officials having a problem with block/charge? I saw once in the ACC playoffs and once in the NCAA games where two officials called different things and they gave each player a foul. The first thing that stood out was that each time, neither of the officials who should have been working that call as secondary made eye contact with the lead official who was working that call primary. In the NCAA game the trail official came down all the way to the foul line extended to make that call. If he is the trail why was he down so far since the lead was on the same side of the court and in position looking in? Is there any training that college officials go through that teach them to blow and not move, then look at their partner before making a call, most of all when it is not their primary area of coverage? Are these people blowing their whistles hard enough so their partners can hear them?

To give two players a foul on a block/charge I think is taking the easy way out as oppose to checking your partner who is in the primary and communicating before going to the table and someone take responsibility for the call.

Good luck to the men and women working the rest of the tournament.

Feel better? :rolleyes: Welcome to the board.

164troyave,
I've never worked in a frenzied NCAA tourney, so I dunno about the decibels of the whistle blowin'. I imagine it's generally loud enough to be heard.
And, contrary to your thinking that a blarge is the "easy way out", I just have to disagree with that.
I think that's a really hard call to make... for all parties concerned.
Keep postin'.
mick

Unfortunately, that is the way it is suppose to be handled.
 

It is not an easy way out, it is the way the rules wants us to call it at that level. It does not make sense in many ways, but if that happens, that is the way these officials are suppose to handle it.

Peace

Regardless of anything else you said, you get two extra points for saying "men and women". I know we're not supposed to be worried about PC, but it feels good to this woman to be recognized. Not that I'm working the tournament, just that I hope I might someday.

Of course you know that if it weren't for Title IX, the NCAA women's tournament would only have eight teams!

Oh! Oh! Stir that hornets nest!

...and I suppose rainmaker could reply, "If it weren't for your momma, you wouldn't be here!" ;)

RD

Actually I was going to reply, "Yes, isn't it wonderful?"

Wow...sure is fun having you around the board...things pretty rough in Nevada or something??

Very, very true.
 

I do not know why folks are so offended, but that is true. Because before Title IX, there was not the same equality as there is today. But then again, we are on a discussion board. People get offended over almost everything.

So who's offended?? Nevadaref posted something to stir up the pot and he got replies...big deal...everyone also realizes that if it weren't for all the $$$ that CBS and the advertisers pump into the men's tournament, it would not have 64 teams either...those $$$ have been great for the men's tournament, and Title IX has been great for the women's...

If the men would adopt one rule that we have in womens, I wish it would be that the official who's primary the call was in takes it. Then it avoids calling two fouls on one play.

If the men would adopt one rule that we have in womens, I wish it would be that the official who's primary the call was in takes it. Then it avoids calling two fouls on one play.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Kevzebra,
The mechanics are the same.
Over-exuberance of immediately selling the call could have been the cause of the double whistle, or it could have been in the dual coverage area.
Either way, prevention may be found in a slower whistle.
...And that's no different from Women's mechanics.
mick

Money makes the world go round.
 

I do not know about you, but this sounds offended to me. Why would you question the man's state or what is going on there?

But why do they pump money into the Men's Tournament? Ya think it might be because more people watch the Men's game and attend those games? This is one of the reasons that the Women's NCAA Tournmaent is on cable TV. If CBS made money on the Women's Tournament, the games would not be on ESPN. No different than why hockey was on cable for a long time and ABC network is currently losing money for putting the NHL on regular TV. I wonder why they put NBA games on the weekend now?

Peace

Re: Money makes the world go round.
 

The answer to your first question would be "Why not?"

The answer to your second would be "DUH!!"

Re: Re: Money makes the world go round.
 

I guess this is the internet, I guess we should not expect any more than that.

Well you are the one that put money into the conversation.

Peace

And again, the points go sailing over your head, much like a BoSox outfielder watching the homeruns go past...

Wait...not always...sometimes their firstbasemen watch the ball go between their legs.

OUCH!! :)

Ooooooh

That one hurt!

In case you missed them,Mark ol' buddy, 'cause the thread got deleted:

http://baseball.about.com/cs/greatmo...ps/index_2.htm
You can watch Mr. Buckner over and over and over and over...

If you get tired of that:
http://www.soxsuck.com

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Apr 2nd, 2003 at 06:18 PM]

Buckner was on some program the other night and he said he is constantly reminded of that 1 play. Even though I am not a Bosox fan (who is other than Chuck), but you have to feel sorry for the guy. If I remember right, he was actually injured during the series. Yankees rule!!

Ok.
I'm not a Sox fan,
BUT.....
The game was already TIED when the ball went through Buckner's legs!
(Chuck, you owe me!);):D

Ok, this has obviously been rehashed ad nauseum up here in New England, but as Drake pointed out, the Sox had already blown a 3-run lead. So the bullpen is as much to blame for the loss as Buckner.

Secondly, Buckner's ankles had been bad for much of the season, at least since the All-Star break. He was routinely replaced in the late innings of games that season for defensive purposes. The fact is that even if Buckner had come up with the ball, it's not at all a given that he would've beaten the runner to the bag. He just couldn't run. However, b/c it was the first Series-clinching game for the Sox in almost 70 years, the manager wanted Buckner on the field to celebrate the final out. So bullpen woes and sentimentality are to blame more than the man himself.

I think there are very few in Boston who still blame him or hold the grudge. We all remember that it was him, of course; but it wasn't all his fault. (In fact, he was brought back to the Sox near the end of his career and received a standing ovation when he took the field at Fenway.)

Chuck

He got a standing ovation at Shea Stadium too!

mick, I think Kevzebra is saying that it's not a double foul in Women's ball. They go with the call of the official who's primary the foul occurred in. But IMHO, that can also be a gray area.

Tony,
I thought he was implying that in Women's ball that two officials will never have a blarge. Because they stay in their primaries, it will never happen.
That ain't so.
mick

Awww, it's OK...someone get Chuck his bottle....

:D

We've discussed before that in NBA and NCAA Women's play, this is not a double foul. It's the primary's call that will be used. I'm pretty sure that's what he was referring to. Perhaps he/she will confirm.

Will this do?
http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Animation/Gif/bebe2.gif

In the NBA, each player would be assessed a foul (no team fouls) and a jump ball would be administered.

Chuck

That's not was posted here a couple of weeks ago when this subject came up. That's what I was basing my remark on.

Somebody may have gotten their info a little confused. Or maybe they meant WNBA. They might administer it differently. I'm not sure.

Chuck

Even though the "differing of opinions" provision is in the NBA rule book, I know that most would still try and get only a block or a charge, and not go with the double foul.
By the way, WNBA has the same provision.

I know that's what they'd try to do, but once opposite signals are given, by rule they have to assess both, don't they?

Chuck

If you're saying STRICTLY by rule, yes. :rolleyes:
There's still alot of flexibility, and you rarely see it done that way.

That's partly b/c I rarely see opposite signals given. In fact, in all the NBA games I've watched on TV and in person, I honestly cannot remember ever seeing officials give opposite signals in a block/charge situation. Great discipline. Seriously.

Chuck

I look at it this way: This is a game of angles. If one official calls PC, he/she must have seen something FROM THEIR ANGLE, and if the other comes up with block, he/she must have seen something to justify that FROM THEIR ANGLE. I don't see why one official should "overrule" another. Who's to say who's right. Why should one back down and not the other. Granted PATIENT WHISTLES will obviously solve this problem on the floor. But we, as officials, get into the emotions of the game just like the players whether we like it or not. And that's where we get in a hurry. Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree that it's a game of angles, see the whole play, referee the defense, etc. But the bottom line is that the play cannot be both a PC and a block. Either the defender was there legally or he was not.

More often than not, one of the officials didn't have a good enough look at the play or picked up the play late. In those cases, the crash invariably looks like a block.

Who's to say who is right? Out on the court, probably nobody. It happens too fast, and you don't want to start reviewing judgment calls. But the tape will tell you who was right after the game.

The key is to decide ahead of time how the situation will be handled. Who will call it if it comes from the T's area? Who will call it if it's a secondary defender? Once you answer those questions in your pre-game, you have to have the discipline to hold your secondary signal unless the crew has agreed that it's your call.

Just my two cents.

Chuck

Chuck, your last statement says it best. Once signals are given, that changes everything. Patient whistles and not giving preliminary signals avoids this mess almost all the time. However, some supervisors want you going right to the back of your head (PC) instead of holding with a fist. Same for the block. That's what gets people in trouble in those gray dual coverage areas or areas where lines of responsibility meet. It's always easy to "see the tape" if one's available. However, I think you'd agree on the floor it's a reactionary decision. The prleiminary signals get you trouble. It's a must discussion in pregame. After signals are given, double foul is the only way out. That's why it's in the book and a topic of discussion at clinics and camps.

I saw a great "communications" play for the officials in the NCAA, I believe, in the first round. The classic double whistle, coming out of C's area. C and L both had whistles on it. They paused, looked at each other, then realizing whose call it was, C cracks his whistle again and goes PC. I love watching those types of plays when the officials execute properly. (better yet when I'm on the floor cracking the whistle myself!) I got a kick out of it, when all of my buddies I was watching the game with, non officials I might add, were like what the hell was that?