I may have missed it on the board, but did anyone see the Kansas Arizona game? There was a play in front of the T where Heinrich (?) did the "I am jumping to pass/shoot but really don't want to jump" play. The T saw the play and motioned that there was No travel. Heinrich then passes the ball and begins to cut. The C comes all the way across the court with a whistle and says that there was a traveling. Eventually the T changes his call and signals traveling. Looking at the replay, Heinrich definelty left his feet. The T was making signals to state there was no travel, Heinrich passes and cuts, then the C comes over.
Any thoughts on how this was handled? They got the call right, but did they go about it the right way?

I saw the play. I think it was Tony Greene who came over from C, but I'm not sure. IMHO, in a game of that magnitude, with a call so obviously missed, I felt they did the right thing by calling the travel. I know this breaks the sacred rule of calling your own area, and the "why was he looking over there anyways?" but I would have done the same thing.

How about dipsh!t Roy Williams at halftime? "We can't have the referees making up the rules as they go!" Well coach, first of all, they didn't make up a rule, traveling is traveling. Second, there are in fact three officials on the floor, but only one referee! :0

OK, OK, OK
 

1) I saw the call also and was amazed there was not a travel called, in a timely manner.

2) I know that William's issue was wondering if it was OK, for an official to come from along ways away (after a considerable delay) and change a call in front of another official. While you guys know everything about all the rules not all coaches have the depth of knowledge you guys show.

3) If is the "dumbest" thing in the world to make statements such as, "Second, there are in fact three officials on the floor, but only one referee!" Only officials know there is a difference and to make this a point is childish at best . . . I thought we could move above this.

4) The 'real' question remains, "why did the off official have to come over and cause this or why did not the nearest official make the call?"

5) All in all the call that was finally made was correct, isn't that a good thing? And guys, coaches get fired for losing games they have a great investment in how games are called (or in this single play, not called) and they MUST be given the leeway that is seen.

I think the call was finally correct and done as well as possible. It was almost a "Third World Play" that any D1 coach would have legitimately questioned it.

Didn't see it, but from the sounds of it, although INCREDIBLY embarrassing for the T official, it was the right thing to do. Sounds like it was handled about in the most nonchalant way possible (if that's even possible with 50,000 fans and a national TV audience).

If the C is in a good spot, with a wide view, an obvious jump-up-and-down travel across the court would be well within his field of vision.

The dork announcer didn't help any either. He was going off on the official "overruling" the other official. If I recall, the official didn't "overrule", he came and talked to the first official and allowed him to make the call.

Even after the replay showed that the officials ultimately made the right call, the bonehead commentator is still going off on the officials for changing the call, even though he admitted it to be right. The other commentator was much nicer, stating that the right call had been made, and that was the important thing.

The right call was made, however the T was not sure of his area. Sometimes with three officails you sort of lose track of your area. So he must of figured it was the C area, and the C called his area, it just took a little longer than most calls.

Clay, I highly doubt that an official of that caliber and experience was unsure of his primary area of responsibility. He may have taken his eye of the play at the wrong moment, but there's no way he "lost track" of his area.

Chuck

Re: OK, OK, OK
 

I think that was intended as humorous, Tim. He even attempted to put a little smiley after it. Nobody expects a coach to know the difference between Referee and Umpire. Heck they don't even know that they can't call time-outs!

Somebody send Tim that humor plug-in! :D

Chuck

From the view that I had,it looked like the Trail looked off the ball just before the travel-maybe because there was no real pressure-and that's why he missed it.Been there-done that.The C did a good job bringing it to the T's attention and taking the call over.The trail was smart enough to let the C do that.The guy's got the call correct,and that's all that matters,as you said.The Trail also did a good job keeping ol' Roy halfway under control too,until he had a chance to cool down. JMO.

One thing that was missed is that it wasn't an "overrule". There is no such call as a "No Travel". The C saw an obvious violation that everyone in the gym (except the T) saw. The cal l was clearly in the T's area, probably 10ft. off the T's sideline and above the arc. The C, looking through the lane, could easily see it. I wouldn't be suprised if the lead saw it too.

Now, if the T calls travel, the C should NOT come over and say "No Travel". That would be overruling.

I'd like to see this supposed "no travel" signal.

For NF, it must be right between "kicked ball" and "goaltending."

It is sort of hard to describe the mechanic for "no travel" but as has been discussed over and again on this board, tournament officials are not above making up their own mechanics. All I can say is he was making a signal to show everyone that he saw the play but did not see the travel.
This is why our supervisor does not like us to make a "no signal signal". I.E. The tip, spacing symbol for closely guarded or "wave off".

****I didn't see it. How far away was the Trail from the play? For me anyway sometimes it hard to discern travelling if you are right on top of it or just too close.

At least from the camera angle...........
 

I do not think it was that easy to determine it was an actual travel. I mean there was no close up. You could not see both feet and there relationship to the floor. And the commentators (not the best source, but here it goes) said the T indicated that there was no travel. But this is one the reasons I was watching, and those officials were actually officiating. Because when I saw the play, I was thinking, "you have to be right there to see that one."

But that is my take.

Peace

The trail was too close. Certainly less than 10 feet. Probably more like 6-7 feet. From the camera angle from the center's side of the floor, it was clear that both feet came several inches off the floor. It really wasn't even that close to be controversial. The only thing that made it so was that the center came across the floor to make the call a little late.

Re: At least from the camera angle...........
 

Not sure what you saw Rut but the player definitely jumped and both feet definitely left the floor. I didn't see the original play but the replay, from floor level, was clear.

__________________________________________________ ___

Chuck, little Timmy C. has no sense of humor. You pretty much have to see it his way or not at all. :(

Gee Tony
 

Thanks for the reference . . . I just consider the source.

What a piece.

Re: Re: At least from the camera angle...........
 

I saw the play live. I did not see a replay or any other angle. And it was not clear that he traveled from that angle. The camera was too far away. It looked funny, but the angle that was shown live did not show both feet close up or an better angle. It looked funny, but that does not mean it was illegal. But then again, I only saw one angle. And you cannot call things that just "look bad."

Peace

Rut,
In the live action angle you cannot see both feet of the KU player because the bottom of the screen clips them off. In the first replay this is also true. However, later in the game, maybe even after halftime, they showed another camera's view from near the floor level and it is crystal clear that both feet come off the floor and then return.
Bottom line, the final call was correct, the T totally missed it, the C saved his butt. I thought the C did a wonderful job waiting for the T to make the call and when he did not, he had to come over and get that call made. If the T is embarrassed, and he should be, he can only blame himself, the C waited so as not to embarrass him. If I were the T, I would be thanking my C and buying all the post-game refreshments.

I saw that play, which you are talking about. That was a walk,and the way it was it was handle. I think the T should have went to the Ku head coach. And just tell him that he blew that one. Maybe Roy would have taken it a little better.

OK, I guess I stand alone on the board, concerning this play. The C had no business coming that far to call a travel in front of his partner. 1. its not a NON-BB play. 2. it was way out of his area, I mean not even close to his area. 3. he didn't just wait to see if his partner would make the call, he waited, thought and beep. 4th and 5th, the main two points, which by the way is the point coach Roy was trying to make, is the play was over and the C did not make the call, he went to the other official(simular to a mis call on an OOB) to give information to him so as to call a travel. I see a call or a no call every game where I know should have or should not have been called. I'll be darn if i going to go Beep on a play 40 or 50 feet away and go to my partner and say you missed a violation.

Re: Re: Re: At least from the camera angle...........
 

Rut,
If I remember correctly.
I saw the play on TV and the although I didn't see the feet, I did notice that Hinrich got about 13-1/2" taller, then 13-1/2" shorter and then acted very sheepishly. His body language indicated surprise that the whistle was not yet blown. It was like he was thinking, "Uh.... Okay, what now?"

Baaaaaaa-d form. :)

mick

Bart, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but how is traveling a non-basketball play? I just don't understand what you mean by that.

I don't know if you stand alone, but I will disagree with you. I didn't see the play, but the fact that it's way out of the C's area doesn't mean that he can't call it. Apparently, Williams was upset, which is dumb, but understandable. But what are you going to say to the other coach when 20,000 people saw an obvious travel and nobody in stripes does anything? "Sorry Coach, not my call"? I hope not. "My partner had a great look at it"? He obviously didn't.

Bottom line is that you have to call the obvious. If everybody in the gym knows that something happened, somebody better blow a whistle.

I guess we agree to disagree.

I guess I really am dense this morning, b/c those examples don't help me. How is traveling not a basketball play? I honestly don't understand.

Chuck

Chuck, i think i see the misunderstanding. I didn't say "traveling not a basketball play". I said traveling is not a non bb play. A NON BB play is, punch, kick, pinch, elbow, spit, trash talk, etc. Sorry for the confussion.

I agree. Great job.

Why, oh why, should the T be embarrassed? He obviously did not see what the C saw (like that? :) ) and he rightly held his whistle. Nothing to be embarrassed about, IMO.

Ok, I see I read it wrong originally. Sorry. Now that I understand what you said, let me see if I understand why you said it. Is your point that an official should be quick to grab the non-basketball stuff even if it's not in his primary; but that he should let his partner "live and die" (so to speak) with whatever basketball plays occur in front of him?

If that's the point, I finally see the light :) I still say somebody has to call the obvious stuff, but we've already agreed to disagree. I just want to make sure that I understand what you're really saying.

Chuck

Yes, for the most part, you live and die. If, we are talking a secondary coverage, or the very few plays concerning angles that the ncaa mechanics have pointed out, then, depending on the game and the play, I might come and get. If i was to review a seasons worth of tapes, i think I could count on one hand the times I called something out of my primary.

Bart,
I think I need both hands to count the number of times I've apologized for reaching.
mick

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bart Tyson
[B]OK, I guess I stand alone on the board, concerning this play. The C had no business coming that far to call a travel in front of his partner.

__________________________________________________ _________

One POE that I have read in the NCAA Officiating Bulletins is that an official should never tell a coach or player that he did not call something because it was not his call. From that point of view, the C saw a travel and chose not to ignore it: he did what his boss told him to do. Personally, I have no problem with the call, bottom line is they got it right.

I don't think this discussion is about what we say to a coach. I do believe, if you were to ask a supervisor; "if my partner misses a obvious travel 6' in front of him and I am 40' to 50' away, do you want me to wait 5 second, after the ball has been passed, blow my whistle, go to my partner and give him info so as to call a travel"? Hummmm I wonder what most supervisors would say. Actually, I don't wonder, I'm confident My supervisors would not reconmend this action.

For a travel that would be a judegment call (when was the ball controlled/released relative to the foot movement, etc.) I would agree with you. However, in this case, and ones like it, where everyone (minus one) in the gym saw a blantant, obvious, and unmitigated travel, it needs to be called.

The C was more like 35 ft from the play (not all that different than the T often is in a two man game) while the T was probably about 10 feet.

Plus, the areas are called "primary areas", not "exclusive areas." If any ref knows of an obvious violation and does not call it, they've not done their job. There's a quote that I've heard from an exchange between an NBA coach and official where a similar thing happened and the ref said "It's not my call" to which the coach responded with "Well, who's call is it? The popcorn guy?"

We're a team out there, not three/two individuals.

I'm confident mine would say "just get the play right".

You better be sure.
 

We are also suppose to cover our areas too. If you are reaching calling what you feel are "obvious" violations, we might not have the same definition of "obvious." I know my assignors might not have a problem if this was a one time thing, but it better be a one time thing, not an every other trip down the floor thing. Call right or not.

Peace

The trail was too close. Certainly less than 10 feet. Probably more like 6-7 feet. From the camera angle from the center's side of the floor, it was clear that both feet came several inches off the floor. It really wasn't even that close to be controversial. The only thing that made it so was that the center came across the floor to make the call a little late. [/B][/QUOTE]


*****Over time you develop some sense of when your partner might need help. You can either see he is blocked out of a call or even, like you say, is maybe too close to the play to get a good look. Or you might be looking at something that your partner is letting go and you realize he is probably blocked from seeing it. Of course you have to be careful not to overstep you bounds but knowing these situations you can catch things that might get overlooked. Maybe thats what happened here. The C saw he might have been to close so he helped. Just an opinion.

THis is what I feel a key issue to officiating.
I think we can all agree, especially if we saw the slow mo replay on TV that it was an obvious travel. SO the C helped make the right call. So let's play What if:
What if we were talking about a foul as opposed to the violation? The first question that would be asked of me would be "Why were you looking at that area?". This play did not take place in a grey court area such as the top of the key or arount the FT line. My question is "What was the official looking there for anyway?" He did not need to signal for a 3 pt attempt, he would echo T. There were players in his area, so he should have watched those. And finally, someone made the point that the play was over when the C made the call.
SO do we commend him for the correct call, or do we grade down for looking out of his area? (When I do it it is called ball watching.) Now, if this was a JrHi/Middle School game and you are working with a newbie, I can see fishing, but at the highest D1 level? That is why I will probably never get to that level!!
Just some more thoughts.

Sometimes, this question is so stupid!

When you officiate an area, your vision does not stop at the end of your area. You see through the play and must always be aware of the ball and know where it is. Do you sense this? No. Do you smell the ball? No. Is the ball calling to you? No. You have to see the ball to know where it is!

In this play, it wasn't a palming violation at the division line that the trail passed on. It was an obvious travel. Everyone in the building saw it except for the guy who should have called it. The important thing is to call the obvious and get it right. There was absolutely nothing wrong with this call. If it hadn't been so obviously missed by the T, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I think some of you are missing half the point. The C did not call a travel. He waited till later in the game (just to get the point accross) after the ball was passed and blew the whistle and gave hes partner info to make a violation call.

Tony, I said the same thing two days ago. Didn't do much good then, either ;)

Stupid is as stupid does. I think we can all agree that there are different ways to "see" the ball. There is the obvious, staring at the ball. There is the "oops the ball just got turned over and I am L and need to bust down to trail because everyone is running that way", and there is the nefarious periphrial vision (Even though it is spelled wrong.) If I am watching my area, out of the "corner of my eye" i can see the movement, most of the time, out of my area. (Much like the defensive principle of watching a spot where you can see your man and the ball) It is this movement that will tell me when/where I need to go. I am not sure that my vision is good enough to over rule, or make a ruling on a call that I am looking at out of the corner of my eye.
I would never argue that the T missed the call, and that it was a travel. MY only question is how would others have handled it or been evaluated on it?

Well, those of us with presence can sense where the ball is...it speaks to us...tells us jokes...it buys us beer after the game...washes our cars on the weekend...it flirts with our wives and tells lies to our bosses, but that is another matter...we have achieved oneness with the basketball.

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/high_priest.JPG

Needs a better shine on those dogs.

Well, those of us with presence can sense where the ball is...it speaks to us...tells us jokes...it buys us beer after the game...washes our cars on the weekend...it flirts with our wives and tells lies to our bosses, but that is another matter...we have achieved oneness with the basketball.

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/high_priest.JPG [/B][/QUOTE]When did ya give up on being a Druid,Dan??:confused:

http://www.gifs.net/animate/an254.gif

Be the ball, Danny.

http://www.bushwood.net/shack/caddy005.JPG

Be the ball.

Sent them out for Leather Luster. Be back next week.

When did ya give up on being a Druid,Dan??:confused:

http://www.gifs.net/animate/an254.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Ya know, I've been questioning that whole Druid thing lately. I dunno...there's gotta be more to life than dancing around a bunch of rocks a couple of times a year.

It's hard when you're talking like that.

In this case, the C was concentrating on his own area...the T's area happened to be (an usually is, at least in part) directly beyond the C's area and is often in the same line of sight as the C should be looking.

As far as evaluations go. I, this last season, let a backcourt all go as lead that I was criticized for since I knew it was a violation but deferred to my partner (the trail). Everyone in the gym but hime knew it was a violation. The evaluator asket me afterwards if I knew it should have been a violation and I said yes....he said I should have called it.

Bad memory....
 

Camron,
My very first Varsity Girls' game, I made a back court call from baseline lead which got reversed by my 30-year veteran partner who still doesn't know the rule.
I don't think I am able to go there again.
Big impression....
Coach was r-e-a-l-l-y angry!
mick