fewer than five

A Pennsylvania Coach · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 02:01pm

What is the NFHS rule regarding completing a game with fewer than five eligible players remaining?

Also, have any of you ever been in a situation like this, or heard of one. When I was a JV coach, I once finished a game with four players. We were down by seven points with about two minutes left when we went to four, and lost by three points!

firedoc · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 02:05pm

A team may continue to play with less than 5 player as long as,in the opinion of the officials, they have SOME chance of winning. Obviously this is a very subjective opinion, but that is the rule (not verbatim). They must, however, have at least 5 players in order to begin the game.

whistleone · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 02:20pm

firedoc's right. Here's the rule:
Rule 3.1.1 Note: A team must begin with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with fewer than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the gam.

Pirate · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 05:45pm

Penn Coach, yes I have seen something even more bizarre than your experience as a J.V. coach and almost winning with only 3 players on the floor. And I will probably never see it again, but here goes.

The place: Central Idaho, two small schools (150 students or less in grades 9-12) competing in a girls JV game.

The situation: Team V (visitors) has 6 players on their team. Team H (home) has 12. Also, it is the first year for the three point goal experiment (back in the early 80's Idaho was one of the chosen few states allowed to experiment with the 3 pt. goal at that time).

The score: Home team up by 12 in the first half when the first player from team V fouls out. Yes, that's correct, we are still in the first half. Middle of 3rd quarter, team V loses another player and the score is Home team by 9. Team H now has 5 players and the V has 4. Middle of 4th quarter and the V team loses another player so now it's 3 on 5 basketball. The score at this time is now only 5 points.

How on earth with 4 minutes left to play can the V team with 3 players hang with the H team who still has the full complement of their players? Coaching or lack thereof is your answer. The H team (which had a tremendous winning tradition/program) was a big believer in the old 2-3 zone. Problem is the V team was running a perimeter offense with a point guard and two wings and they are simply passing the ball on the perimeter and launching threes (and making many of them I might add). The H team coach is so stupid, (for lack of a better term) she stays in the 2-3 and has her top two defenders chasing the three perimeters of the V team. The bottom 3 defenders were just standing there. Almost comical, except I was from the Home school.

The result: To put an end to this already too long post, the game went into overtime, the V team got a 3 point lead but then missed a golden opportunity when they jumped a passing lane out of their 1-2 zone (hehehe) and missed a breakaway layup. The ensuing transition basket along with someone in the crowd yelling at the top of their lungs begging the coach to trap or double team the V team finally brought an end to the most incredible game I have ever personally seen. Oh, the H team won by 2.

[Edited by Pirate on Mar 26th, 2003 at 04:48 PM]

ref5678 · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 05:52pm

When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

A ? how does a team inbound with only one player. For example 30 seconds left teamA leads by 4. Fowllowing a foul a fight breaks out leaving team A with only one eligible player. Its team a's ball but how would you administer the inbound

Hawks Coach · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 06:01pm

My only epxerience coaching 4 on 5 was not nearly as dramatic, but surprised me at the time. We had 5 players for a game, our center got in foul trouble, and wound up fouling out with 4+ minutes to play. We had outplayed this team early, had tired late and they had cut the lead to 3 when we lost our player. We had two timeouts left because I had used one per quarter to rest the team, and we used one immediately to set up our strategy. So the last 4+ we played with 4 players and one TO. We proceeded to finish on a 10-2 run, mainly on fast break baskets and some good off the ball cuts, and we didn't use the last TO.

Three keys to our success were our extra effort knowing we were shorthanded, the opponent's overconfidence once they got the man advantage, and a complete change in our offense and defense as a result of us going down a man (and losing our most dominant player). We had been banging it inside, and we went to a more open attack with lots of cuts. We had played man on defense and had to zone. both of these changes temporarily confused the opposing team and we not only survived, but actually outplayed them.

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 06:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref5678
When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

A ? how does a team inbound with only one player. For example 30 seconds left teamA leads by 4. Fowllowing a foul a fight breaks out leaving team A with only one eligible player. Its team a's ball but how would you administer the inbound

The last player has 5 seconds to throw the ball in-bounds. If he doesn't do that,the other team gets the ball.There's no stipulation that one of his teammates has to touch the pass in bounds-just somebody on the floor.Therefore,the inbounder is gonna try and throw the ball into his front-court,but keep it in bounds.If he does throw it in and the other team gets it,he will just try and play defense 1 on 5 and hope that the other team misses a few times.

Hawks Coach · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 06:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ref5678
When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

A ? how does a team inbound with only one player. For example 30 seconds left teamA leads by 4. Fowllowing a foul a fight breaks out leaving team A with only one eligible player. Its team a's ball but how would you administer the inbound

A can attempt to hit B on an inbound if B is foolish eough to allow it to happen. If not, then B will get the ball OOB where A had it (after A1 inbounds and the ball is untouched or touched by only A1).

As for how this would work in terms of deciding whether or not to continue, I would let the game go at least until B has the lead, at which time you could call it, especially if B has shown that they won't allow an inbounds pass to touch them. If B is foolish enough to allow the pass to touch them, it might be worth giving the sole A player a chance to inbound off B to himself and go length of the court for a foul or a shot even after B has a 1 point lead with little time left.

The other question that always comes up is FTs, since A cannot fill both bottom blocks. This is one penalty I would pass on if A takes one block, and again it presents an opportunity for A to get a rebound and do something with the ball if B isn't smart.

It really sounds crazy to let the game go on, but I would do so until it is very clear that A has no chance or has given up and isn't looking for a chance. If A can get the ball and the lead is 3 or less, anything can happen in basketball - as shown by the posts here.

Rich · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 06:15pm

Provided there was adequate time left on the clock for the other team to take the lead, I would end the game immediately regardless of the score at the time.

The rules provide that I may end the game, and I would.

Rich

Mark Dexter · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 06:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by firedoc
A team may continue to play with less than 5 player as long as,in the opinion of the officials, they have SOME chance of winning. Obviously this is a very subjective opinion, but that is the rule (not verbatim). They must, however, have at least 5 players in order to begin the game.

Not quite.

A team can play with 5, 4, 3, or 2 players - the referee has no say.

With one player, it is up to the referee's determination of whether the team has a chance of winning.

hawkk · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 06:57pm

In 5th or 6th grade I played in a tournament game in which we got down to less than 5 at the end of regulation, and down to 3 in the first OT period. We scored the first bucket of OT2, but no one knew we were supposed to be playing sudden death, and we lost at the end of the period.

I've also played several adult rec league games on both sides of uneven teams. In one I was part of a 3 on 5 for 15 minutes running time before we got our 4th and 5th -- we were leading at the time, but the three of us were so dog tired we could't keep up and we lost at full strength.

Poor thinking by the team with 5 is often the reason the smaller sized team can stay in the game -- as someone observed above, why would you stay in your 2-3 zone against fewer people -- but I've seen a lot of teams do it. And it is hard to be "up" when you're on the team with more players, it seems so obvious that you're going to win ...

Hawks Coach · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 07:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Provided there was adequate time left on the clock for the other team to take the lead, I would end the game immediately regardless of the score at the time.

The rules provide that I may end the game, and I would.

Rich

A fouls out all but one player and has a five point lead with 30 seconds to play. B can clearly take the lead in this time, but A has a chance to win. You appear saying that if you believe that Team B can take the lead, you will ignore the fact that Team A has a chance to win and determine that the game is immediately a forfeit. Your rule is that if B has a chance to win, A forfeits. The rule does not read that way. It says that if you think that A has a chance to win, it is not a forfeit.

The rule is written under the assumption that when you have gotten down to two players the game is likely over, when you get to one you can end it painlessly by declaring a forfeit. But it does not say that you should decalre a forfeit when A has the lead, because A clearly has a chance to win if they have any lead at all.

Rich · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 08:10pm

This is not what the rule means. If I am team A and am reduced to 1 player with a 1 point lead with 5 minutes left, do I have a chance to win?

Your situation is interesting, but I still, as the referee, have TOTAL discretion when it comes to ending this game and awarding a forfeit.

I've never, since starting officiating FED games in 1987, have had fewer than 4 on the court. I'll let you know what I do should I get down to 1, though.

The only way a team should be able to have a lead with one player left is if multiple players are ejected simultaneously due to a fight. If a team goes through "attrition" down to 1 player and still has the lead, the other team must really, well.....

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Mar 26th, 2003 at 07:13 PM]

Mark Dexter · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 09:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
If a team goes through "attrition" down to 1 player and still has the lead, the other team must really, well.....

Rich

YU.P.

That, of course, is why this is left to the referee's (or, apparently in PIAA games, the executive committee of the PIAA) discretion.

A Pennsylvania Coach · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 26, 2003, 10:24pm

Rec league! I forgot about rec league! Not this winter that just ended, but the one before. I play in a league Saturdays & Sundays. We had a game early in the year that we had about 7 guys against the best team in our league that only had 4. We played 5 on 4 the whole way and lost by a few points.

A couple of weeks later we only had 4 against a team that was not very good. We won something like 110-60. The guy who is my HS assistant coach had 50 points (I think it was 11 threes), another guy had 30, and I even had 17, which was probably more than I had the rest of the season combined. Crazy.