Spot Throw-in Question

medlin · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 04:31pm

Just got finished watching the NCSU-Cal game. For those of you who didn't see the game, with 34 seconds left in overtime, the thrower-in was called for a spot throw-in violation. I watched the play again on TiVo, and Cliff Crawford (the thrower-in) did move on the baseline to his right, but his left foot didn't move further that where his right foot started (so still inside of the 3-foot 'box'). Do both feet have to be inside of the 3-foot box during the spot throw-in according to NCAA rules? Is this different from high school rules?

hhktwins · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 20, 2003, 09:02pm

I saw the play and thought the player was within the 3 foot box, even though the announcers applauded the call, and Sendek didn't say boo. It's amazing how many people think that you can travel on that play. In fact, the official used the traveling signal to indicate the violation. I thought it was a crucial mistake, although NC State still had their chances after that.

rainmaker · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 01:18am

Quote:

Originally posted by hhktwins
In fact, the official used the traveling signal to indicate the violation.

Two questions: 1) did this signal used to be used for this particular violation, and that's why some folks still use it?

2) Does this guy get in big trouble with his super for a)getting the call wrong, b)using the wrong signal?

Okay, okay, three questions...

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 03:19am

The use of the "travelling" signal in this type of situation has never been an approved signal in either FED or NCAA,as far as I know.That said,you never know whether the offical has had a conference supervisor that has instructed him to use that signal in those OOB situations where a spot violation occurs.

I would imagine that the call will be reviewed by whoever is deciding which officials go on to the next round.If the call was wrong,it could affect that official's chances of advancing.If the call was right,but the signal was wrong,it shouldn't affect his chance of advancing as much as a blown call would.

Blackhawk357 · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 05:58am

I don't remember if I came from the state office or not, but in the late 80's or early 90's we were instructed to use the traveling signal in this case. As I remember, the very next year they came back and instructed us NOT to use it anymore. They said that it was to confusing. ~ Go figure.

medlin · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 09:05am

Ok, I looked up the rules last night in both rulebooks.
Here's what they say. For those of you with books handy, I've referenced the rules below:
NCAA: Rule 9-2.4 Art. 1 says that the thrower-in shall not
a.) Leave a designated spot.
Definition of a designated spot: Rule 4-15 A
designated spot shall be 3 feet wide with no depth
limitaion.
The NFHS Rule Book essentially reads the same (Rule 7-6 Art.2) as the NCAA rule. The definition of the designated throw-in spot has a note included. Rule 4-41 Art. 6 NOTE: "The thrower must keep one foot on or over the spot until the ball is released. Pivot-foot restrictions and the traveling rule are not in effect for a throw-in."

I know that the traveling siganl was wrong (and therefore confuses the aveage fan, coach, and announcer.) So, I guess the question is, since the NCAA Rulebook doesn't have the 'NOTE', does the thrower-in have to keep both feet in the box? (There aren't any mentions in the handy 'rule differences' charts in that can be found in the back of the NFHS Rules book or the CCA Officiating Manual.)

devdog69 · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 11:04am

I saw the call and was/am sick about it, imo, it was hoooorrrribbbllle. I don't care as much about the signal even though I refuse to use it, it does communicate to everybody what the call is. I just think in that situation in the game, it was a very debatable call that essentially cost NC State the game, I would guess the official would dearly love to have that call back, jmho.

rainmaker · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 12:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The use of the "travelling" signal in this type of situation has never been an approved signal in either FED or NCAA,as far as I know.That said,you never know whether the offical has had a conference supervisor that has instructed him to use that signal in those OOB situations where a spot violation occurs.

I would imagine that the call will be reviewed by whoever is deciding which officials go on to the next round.If the call was wrong,it could affect that official's chances of advancing.If the call was right,but the signal was wrong,it shouldn't affect his chance of advancing as much as a blown call would.

Thanks for the great answers, JR.

PublicBJ · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by medlin
Just got finished watching the NCSU-Cal game. For those of you who didn't see the game, with 34 seconds left in overtime, the thrower-in was called for a spot throw-in violation. I watched the play again on TiVo, and Cliff Crawford (the thrower-in) did move on the baseline to his right, but his left foot didn't move further that where his right foot started (so still inside of the 3-foot 'box'). Do both feet have to be inside of the 3-foot box during the spot throw-in according to NCAA rules? Is this different from high school rules?

I didn't see the play, but my co-worker was at the game. (The Ford Center is about 4 blocks from my work, I was at the games last night. Had 6th row center seats for the Kansas/Utah State game...) He made it sound like the player took 3-4 little steps to the side. If that's the case, I could see how the official would call the violation.

medlin · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 03:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PublicBJ
I didn't see the play, but my co-worker was at the game. (The Ford Center is about 4 blocks from my work, I was at the games last night. Had 6th row center seats for the Kansas/Utah State game...) He made it sound like the player took 3-4 little steps to the side. If that's the case, I could see how the official would call the violation. [/B]

When I watched it again (many times on TiVo), his right foot was on the center of an "A" in Oklahoma when he was handed the ball. He shuffled his feet (maybe 3-4 steps, maybe not). When the whistle was blown, his left foot had not moved past where his right foot was when he was handed the ball (at the center of the same "A"). There is no such thing as 'traveling' during a spot throw-in. At least one foot was still inside the 3-foot box that he has for a throw-in.

The question that I still have is, do both feet have to be inside of this 3-foot area? Or, is one sufficient, as it is according to NFHS rules?

mick · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 04:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by medlin

The question that I still have is, do both feet have to be inside of this 3-foot area? Or, is one sufficient, as it is according to NFHS rules?

I cannot find anything definitive in the NCAA Rules.

Try looking at TiVo again and see if he took the ball where the official was pointing, or did the player totally ignore the point and was 4' from the official's spot.

medlin · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 04:17pm

The throw-in was after a kicking violation which occurred in the lane on the defense, after which they changed the side of the throw-in. The official placed himslef between the backboard and the player, which meant that the spot was well outside of the lane. I guess that's a long way of saying that he did not ignore the spot.

mick · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 04:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by medlin
The throw-in was after a kicking violation which occurred in the lane on the defense, after which they changed the side of the throw-in. The official placed himslef between the backboard and the player, which meant that the spot was well outside of the lane. I guess that's a long way of saying that he did not ignore the spot.

If a kick occurred in the lane, then the spot is centered 18" outside the lane. Yer saying the spot was wrong or the player was wrong?

(...Wish I had seen it.)

medlin · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 05:07pm

I'm saying that the spot that the referee led the thrower-in to was observed by the player. The referee was standing at the edge of the lane with the player on the outside of him. I think he took up more than 18". So yeah, the referee was probably standing where the spot could/should have been.

bossref · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 21, 2003, 09:42pm

I was challenged on this issue back in the
early 80s, so I wrote to REFEREEE Magazine.

The response I got was that even though it is not
really a travelling violation, the signal does communicate that a violation for moving had occurred.

I didn't buy the explanation then,
and I still don't agree with it.

Use a signal similar to a 3 seconds violation
by pointing to the spot and moving your arm sideways.
I make sure to verbalize "SPOT VIOLATION".

It is not illegal to move one or both feet
on a throw-in! There is no pivot foot restriction.
How can it possibly be called travelling ?