Foul before ball inbounded (NCAA)

DrakeM · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 04:00am

Saw this topic on that "other" board, but would rather bring it up here.
Sitch. A is up by one with 10 seconds left in the game. A is inbounding the ball. B fouls A's worst free throw shooter BEFORE the ball is thrown in, or completely away from the play.
Why does the NCAA/NF allow this type of play with NO additional penalty? I have seen it over and over this season, and in several tourny games this weekend.
I love the NBA rule. If you foul before the ball is released on the throw in, or away from the play under two minutes in the 4th or OT, you get a FT (anyone on the floor can shoot) plus possession.
Thoughts?
Drake

NICK · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 05:44am

Probably be unsportsmanlike (intentional) foul by FIBA rules and that means 2S + P. Good rule.

ChuckElias · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 08:30am

I like the NBA rule, too, and in fact called it once last season. (NOBODY in the gym knew what I'd called, even my partners!)

But I think that the NCAA and Fed don't like to fundamentally change the rules of the game just b/c there's only two minutes left in the game. If it's not intentional or excessive, they don't want to penalize it any harsher than you would at any other time of the game. That's just my guess. They're trying to keep consistency. Although, the NCAA has adopted the rule for stopping the clock in last minute of the game. . . So maybe the "away from the play" foul is coming next? Uh, I don't think so.

Again, just my guess.

Chuck

johnSandlin · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 08:50am

I like the NBA rule as well. If you are going to foul at that point in a game to preserve time, then you have another penalty attached on to the foul.

Junker · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 11:42am

I had this Saturday afternoon in a youth tournament (NFHS rules). Second overtime, A has 1 point lead with 4 seconds left. B2 grabs A2's arms from behind as soon as I administer the ball for the throw in. I called it intentional immediately (although I was calling it anyway since well informed coach B is screaming FOUL! 1 foot away from me). At least the coach got the message that this tactic wasn't going to help him win the game so we shot two and inbounded the ball without incident and moved on to the next game. On a side note, Coach B gave me the "climbing up a ladder move" on a couple of revbounding no calls and also was telling his players to play free throws "off the release". I had a hard time keeping a straight face.

Camron Rust · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 02:16pm

Quote:

Originally posted by johnSandlin
I like the NBA rule as well. If you are going to foul at that point in a game to preserve time, then you have another penalty attached on to the foul.

Under NF rules, they call this an INTENTIONAL FOUL.

Sounds like it's covered already to me...just have to have officials with the guts to call it when it happens.

ChuckElias · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 05:31pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Under NF rules, they call this an INTENTIONAL FOUL.

Sounds like it's covered already to me...just have to have officials with the guts to call it when it happens.

It's not, tho, really, Camron. In HS or NCAA, you could deem the contact sufficient to warrant a foul without ruling it intentional. The NBA rule eliminates this possibility. If the ball is still in the hands of the inbounder, it's an away-from-the-play foul.

Of course, in HS or NCAA, you could rule such a foul to be intentional; but if the kid's not blatent, that's very unlikely and maybe not even called for. The NBA rule takes the guess-work out of the situation.

Just my opinion.

Chuck

Back In The Saddle · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 06:02pm

Let me throw this into the discussion, and see what people think:

Fed 4-19-3 ...An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position, contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball....

Sounds to me like the Fed rulebook definition of an intentional foul addresses this issue explicitly.

Camron Rust · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 17, 2003, 06:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

Originally posted by Camron Rust
Under NF rules, they call this an INTENTIONAL FOUL.

Sounds like it's covered already to me...just have to have officials with the guts to call it when it happens.

It's not, tho, really, Camron. In HS or NCAA, you could deem the contact sufficient to warrant a foul without ruling it intentional. The NBA rule eliminates this possibility. If the ball is still in the hands of the inbounder, it's an away-from-the-play foul.

Of course, in HS or NCAA, you could rule such a foul to be intentional; but if the kid's not blatent, that's very unlikely and maybe not even called for. The NBA rule takes the guess-work out of the situation.

Just my opinion.

Chuck

I'll agree with that...it does take the judgement out. Still, if a team is fouling to preserve time, it should be, by strict NF rules, called an intentional foul. Of course, neither I nor anyone I know actually calls it to the letter of the rule if the players make at least a half-hearted attempt to play the ball or make it look like a typical foul that could have happened at any time of the game.

DrakeM · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 18, 2003, 03:59am

Good points by Cameron and Chuck.
My point is that it shouldn't be left to judgement. (NBA rule)

And Cameron is right. There needs to be more officials with the guts to call the play.
I had this a couple of years ago at the end of a High School game. On the throw in, A2 breaks to the basket,and
B2 grabs him, STRETCHING HIS JERSEY. I call the intentional, and give A, two shots and the ball.
Wasn't popular with visiting Coach, but I believe it fit the letter of the law as well as the spirit of the law, as BITS points out in the rule citation.