Maybe those of you that work NCAA can enlighten me. I understand that when a player fouls out, the coach has 30 seconds to replace them. That is, within 30 seconds, send a sub to the scorer's table. When the sub is at the table, play should resume. Correct?

More and more this looks like a 30-second timeout. Last night when the kid from Colorado fouled out, all the subs and assistants stood up, ringed the coach, started to talk, a sub went to the table and came back, the discussion continued, a horn blew, and the team broke the huddle. Is this permitted in NCAA? And if not by rule, is it understood that this behavior should be allowed?

I saw a HS playoff game two weeks ago. Here in PA we have the seat belt rule. So a player fouls out, and the coach stands up to address his four remaining players. The official tries to get him to sit but it becomes an argument. On one hand, the official is absolutely correct. On the other hand, that coach has probably seen this in hundreds of NCAA and NFHS games, and probably never seen a coach asked to sit back down.

Comments?

Pet peeve of mine, Coach. You are exactly right. It's NOT a timeout. Once the sub reports, he comes in the game and we play ball. Drives me nuts. Why? I really don't know. What does the extra 15 seconds really matter? Not much, I guess, but it's just not supposed to be a time-out.

Chuck

There is nothing in the rules that states a coach cannot use the 30 seconds in this situation to talk to his team. As long as he gets the sub in, I've got no problem with this. Personally, I wish more coaches would do this. It's basically a free time out...don't spend it staring at the officials.

Don't agree with you TriggerMN. Once the sub is beckoned into the game he can't (legally) return to the bench..and the other 4 players must remian on the court. If all or any of the 5 are off the court, then technically a "tec" could be given. However, the best solution is to "put the ball in play"...i.e. resuming play procedure. The coach can talk to his players but they must "all" remain on the court. This is why the resuming play procedure, I think is the best way to go. Once the sub is beckoned onto the court, then it is up to the official(s) as to how long he let's them huddle-
once the sub is beckoned, then that team has 5 players and official(s) should put ball in play.

There's nothing wrong or illegal about a coach standing and talking with the 4 remaining players or talking with the sub who's going to enter the game. However, under NF rules, the asst. coaches cannot stand and play resumes when the player is beckoned.

This is why the 30 seconds to replace should be taken out. I undertsand they've done it succesfully in Illinois HS, there's really no reason to give the coach 30 seconds to figure out who to put in. Having said that, as far as I'm concerned the coach does get a free 30, as long as he's smart enough to keep the sub in the huddle & not send him to the table. As for the ref who decided to enforce the seatbelt rule...the best that can be said is he seems to have trouble picking his battles.

I believe the issue here is that the coach believes he has a "timeout" rather than 30 seconds to think about who to sub.

I believe the 30 seconds are needed as the coach has been placed in a situation that he hadn't accounted for. From the standpoint of strategy he may need the time to make the decision on who to sub especially at the higher level of ball.

AS long as the sub is not beckoned in, I have no problem with the 30 seconds. However Once the sub is on the floor the coach has used his "30 Seconds" and play must continue immediately.

[Edited by RefSouthAlb on Mar 14th, 2003 at 10:09 AM]

It is the coaches 30 seconds to use as he wishes. As soon as he sends a sub we play on. However both NCAA and FED rules agree that the coach has 30 sec. to replace this player. If he uses the first 29 talking to his team and the sub who cares??? Why are we getting bent out of shape on this. If ten people foul out in a game and each coach uses 29.9 sec to talk to his team we have delayed the game a whole 4minutes and 59sec. Big deal.... Are we really in that big of a hurry to get out of the gym??? Remember the game is for the players not us.... This is smart coaching IMO. However if the coach imm. sends the sub to the table he has lost this privilage and if he does not break on 30 we have a legit sitch for a tech. JMO

I don't think anyone will disagree with what you wrote above. The problem is that many coaches think that they have a 30-second timeout. They know who they're going to sub in, and send him to the table immediately, then expect to be able to talk to their kids for 25 more seconds.

I'm with you. Once the sub reports, I beckon and we play on.

Chuck

I see what you are describing here plenty as well chuck. Once the coach sends the sub to the table to "time to replace" is over and we play on immediately. If the coach wants to use this time he needs to do it in the correct manner. Talk to team-send sub-ready for play immediately. I worked a JuCo game earlier this season where the first time we sent a player out w/ 5 the coach sent a sub and then continued the "huddle" when I forced the break I got a stare from the coach. About a minute later my partner fouled out another player on a team control foul. The same thing happened so my other partner blew the whistle and put the ball in play. You should have saw them scramble....

I almost got a T on the other team in this situation. I had a player foul out, they lined up for the free throws and then they realized the kid had 5. The ref comes over to me and tells me and starts the clock. I know who I am going to sub in but I want to give my other four a break. While I am waiting there the other coach calls his guys over to the bench to talk to them. As soon as they got there I sent my sub up. The ref beckoned him in and then told the other team to get lined up. Ref had to ask them three times to get back on, thought I would get a T or at least a free throw violation. Just a little gamesmanship among coaches. ;)

Wanna bet?

If the sub isn't at the table,ready to be beckoned in,when the 30 second count ends,it's an automatic T charged to the head coach. When a team breaks the huddle has nothing to do with the "substitution of a disqualified player" rule.The only requisite is that they substitute for the disqualified player within 30 seconds.If they wanna stay in the huddle after the sub is beckoned in,you might be now getting into the "resuming play" rule,though,instead of a T.

Sorry to all...I misread the original post. I did not see that the sub was already at the table, ready to be beckoned in. In this situation, bring the sub in and begin play. What I meant to way was that if the coach has not yet sent a sub to the table, he by all means is allowed that 30 seconds to coach his team on the floor...

JR is correct here. We are talking about a couple of different sitchs. As soon as the sub is sent we go to resuming play. If the sub is not sent before the 30 we can have a T.

I don't have the rule book handy, but doesn't the resuming play procedure only go into effect following a timeout? Therefore, if the coach sends his sub to the table immediately, and procedes to hold a team huddle, wouldn't a T be in order rather than the RPP? Assuming, of course, that we've given the coach notice that we're going to start play.
IOW, if it's a free throw and his players aren't in their required positions, whack 'em.
If it's a throw in and his players are on the court, give the other team the lay up.

Adam

I side with Adam on this. The whole point of this thread is that when a player fouls out, it is NOT a time-out. Therefore, the resumption of play procedure isn't an option. Get on the floor, or get whacked. Not that I'd be quite that hasty to enforce it, but that is the correct way to administer it, I think.

Chuck

FED 10.5.1B states that as soon as the sub reports to the table play will resume immediately as provided in 7.5.1. I do not have my NC2A rule book along so I cannot support that. However, due to the interpretation in the FED casebook I tend to lean towards JR on going to resuming play and not whacking the coach for not breaking the huddle.

Actually, if we're looking at a non-shooting foul (and a throw-in), I'd agree that we just let the team put the ball in play. Warn the coach that we're going to play, and hand the ball to the thrower. Should be an easy layup for A if they're paying attention.
If we're looking at free throws, give the ball to the shooter and call a T on B for not having players in the proper slots. It's not a timeout, so RPP doesn't come into effect.

Adam

If we let team A put the ball in play we are using resuming play procedures 7.5.1. If we imm. whack during a FT we are not 8.1.1. So how can we use RPP on one sitch and not the other. That is what we are hammering at here is this an extension of RPP or not....

Don't agree.The players should be on the floor to start with,not off the floor-i.e. they should be gathered near the boundary(CB play 10.5.1SitB).If they want to stay there,you then simply follow the rules similar to what you would do after a violation-(1)If they're throwing the ball in,you put the ball on the floor and start the 5 second count if they don't make someone available to throw the ball in(CB 7.5.2SitA)(2)If they're on defense,just give the ball to the other team for their throw-in(3)If it's during a FT,there's rules governing each team also.

There's nothing in the book that says you can T a team immediately,if they do stay by their bench after their sub is beckoned in.

Okay, here's my rationale.
Situation A. B1 fouls out on a PC foul. No shots, ball OOB for A. Coach immediately sends B6 to the table to replace B1, then summons his kids for a huddle. Players still on the floor, coach just thinks he still gets to use the 30 seconds. I'd give him a quick warning, "Coach, let's go." Wait a couple seconds. If no movement. Blow the whistle and hand the ball to A1.
Players are on the court, so RPP isn't necessary, IMO. If anything, T the coach for being on the court (if he is) or standing (if there's a seatbelt in effect). I wouldn't take it that far, since it would only aggravate the situation. If he howls, tell him we can discuss it later if he wishes.

Situation B. Same as above, but B1 fouls out on a shooting foul. A1 gets free throws.
Line up for the free throws, and give the ball to A1. If B isn't in position, I've got a T.

Adam

I should add that if there are free throws, I'd loudly request B players for the blocks before I give the free throw to A1. If they're not running towards the hoop pretty shortly, I give A1 the ball and call it from there.

Look at what I just said above. You are using RPP on one sitch (baseline throw-in) and not the other (FT) you can't have it both ways. Here is the way I look at it. Although this is not calssified as a timeout, it is a stoppage of play with a timed replacement period. Does this fall under RPP or not. You say no since the sub has reported and all five players are on the court. Why then would you have a T for not occupying the low blocks and not a delayed violation as you would normally have???

I A1 fouls out. After coach is notified he takes 25-seconds talking to the sub he is sending in. The sub reports to the table before the 30-seconds is up. The throw-in following this foul is at the division line opposite the table. Question::will you blow your whistle to resume play. If so, then you are saying it is a resumng play procedure (i.e. following a timeout, intermission or unusual delay)..if you don't blow your whistle, then you are saying it is not a resuming play procedure....and just put ball on floor and go. I repeat the question--will you blow your whistle before beginning play???

We all agree that once the sub reports and is beckoned on, we are ready to play...rather than argue "should we T them or use RPP", how about we use some common sense and game management and walk right into the huddle and say "Coach, this isn't a time-out. Let's go right now." They'll get there pretty quick...

Great rationalle rocky, one which is easy to use. As we often do on this forum however we are discussing the rules basis behind our actions not what we would actually would or would not do on the court...

As far as blowing the whistle, how many times have we all blew the whistle when strictly we were not supposed to or vise versa. Use of the whistle is not good enough IMO as a basis for RPP or not.

Situation B. Same as above, but B1 fouls out on a shooting foul. A1 gets free throws.
Line up for the free throws, and give the ball to A1. If B isn't in position, I've got a T.
[/B][/QUOTE]Agree with you up to here,Adam.This is where I agree with MN3.If B doesn't fill the bottom slots,it's a violation as per Rule 9-1-2.If B continues to NOT fill the bottom slots,you then go to the T under R10-1-5(b).

Of course we're gonna do that,Rocky.We're just arguing the hypothetical,correct-by-the-book way to call it.

Okay, but can I whack 'im if he does it again? ;)

Good point. Just play the game. If they all want to defend their bench instead of their basket, so be it. I can go with that.

Chuck

Blow whistle.

"Okay, that's five fouls on Blue Six....Blue has 30 seconds to sub. (to timer), Please start a 30 second timer now."

I personally don't care how the coach uses his 30 secs, as long as it's not just to howl at the officials. Seatbelting the coach accomplishes nothing except to aggrevate the coach and increase the tension needlessly.

But that ball's coming back in when the buzzer goes off. No ifs, ands or buts. Any unreasonable delay should be penalized.

Classic two-way street scenario. Don't go looking for stuff, but be firm on the rule.

Don't know why but I just got this image in my head of 5 players "guarding" a howler monkey coach. (Guess you had to be in my twisted head) Maybe it is the 50 degree weater we finally hae here in MN. how is it U.P. there guys???

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MN 3 Sport Ref
[B]Great rationalle rocky, one which is easy to use. As we often do on this forum however we are discussing the rules basis behind our actions not what we would actually would or would not do on the court...


OHHHHH...I get it. It's one of them there philosophical type discussions...of course, if you have the right presence, and only work the really high levels of boys basketball (none of that crappy girl stuff), then of course you would more than likely handle it the way I said...

Man, am I cranky or what? My season hasn't even been over a week yet and the withdrawals are hitting pretty hard...

Ooooh,Rocky needs a hug!
http://www.uselessgraphics.com/carto96.gif

All an I can say about this thread is that a lot of guys must of stayed home from work to watch the games on TV today.

All an I can say about this thread is that it's hard to believe it went 3 pages!

Blue 6? I hope white got their 2 free throws. ;)

Maybe it's ok in FIBA? I'm pretty sure it's ok in NBA.

Chuck