Question about a situation

[firstyearref]

Hello,

As my login name applies, I am in my first year as a basketball ref. I have officiated for a few youth leagues, and for the intramural games at my college.

I had a situation in the intramural tournament that I would like to see how some of you would have handled it.

Situation: Team A is leading by more than 10 points with 3 minutes to go in the game. I have called a technical foul on B1 for innapropriate language/direct verbal attack on me. The overall attititude on team B is horrible.

Later in the game, with 30 seconds to play, team A is obviously going to win (10+ point spread). B2 is shooting free throws. B1 and B3 refuse to line up in an appropriate position. (they do this to get under my skin...) B1 again makes a direct verbal attack on me, I give him his second Technical, and he is ejected. The game has fallen apart. B3 continues his illegal position for free throws.

Thanks,

Nathan

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by firstyearref
B2 is shooting free throws. B1 and B3 refuse to line up in an appropriate position. (they do this to get under my skin...) B1 again makes a direct verbal attack on me, I give him his second Technical, and he is ejected. The game has fallen apart. B3 continues his illegal position for free throws.

Nathan,

First, welcome to the board. Glad to have you.

Second, I'm also glad that you assessed the technical fouls for inappropriate comments. Too many first year guys are gunshy about giving technical fouls and just take the abuse, which they shouldn't have to do.

Third, to address your specific situation, what was wrong with the the positions of B1 and B3? If team B is shooting FTs, then Team A must occupy the lowest spaces, but the player from Team B who must be in a certain place is the shooter. Where were B1 and B3 standing? Unless they were outside the arc and below the FT line extended, they're fine.

Sorry to hear your game was so lousy. But they'll get better

Chuck

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by firstyearref
Hello,

As my login name applies, I am in my first year as a basketball ref. I have officiated for a few youth leagues, and for the intramural games at my college.

I had a situation in the intramural tournament that I would like to see how some of you would have handled it.

Situation: Team A is leading by more than 10 points with 3 minutes to go in the game. I have called a technical foul on B1 for innapropriate language/direct verbal attack on me. The overall attititude on team B is horrible.

Later in the game, with 30 seconds to play, team A is obviously going to win (10+ point spread). B2 is shooting free throws. B1 and B3 refuse to line up in an appropriate position. (they do this to get under my skin...) B1 again makes a direct verbal attack on me, I give him his second Technical, and he is ejected. The game has fallen apart. B3 continues his illegal position for free throws.

Thanks,

Nathan

Welcome aboard..
If B2 is shooting FT's, Team B players do not have to line up in the lane spaces. (did you mean this or were they lingering about inside the 3 point line somewhere?) Team A has the obligation of lining up in their correct spaces only(the first 2 under basket) Don't have rule book to quote here at the office. Sorry.
As far as the T's, don't take no crap, sounds like you did good.

[Back In The Saddle]

Before the big dogs weigh in with the collective wisdom of the ages (i.e., the right answer ), here's what I think I might do.

If B is shooting, A has to occupy the lower block spaces. B just has to be in a legal position along the free throw lane or behind the 3 point line and FT line extended. No B player actually has to occupy any space along the lane.

If they are wilfully violating, then, I think, you have a few possible courses of action.

* Give B1 the ball, let him shoot the free throw, blow it down and cancel the throw for a violation. Lather, rinse, repeat until the players behave or all throws are voided. Give A the ball for a throw in.

* Give B a team warning for delay of game. If they persist, T-bone 'em. If they push it even an inch further, forfeit the game.

* A good rule of thumb to use when calling a T is: Try to only call the T if it'll make the game better. Obviously B1 made that choice for you. However, would T-boning and ejecting B3 have improved the game? If so, toss the bad apples and continue.

Whichever option you choose, make sure the league knows what happened. They should take action to deal with the team.

[Blackhawk357]

Welcome.

I like Chuck's answer.
Other than that, if B players refuse to get into position (whatever that may be), give the ball to B2 and call a violation, if they still refuse to play, team A will score another basket and you can go home. With that little time left in of a game that ugly, a high priority is to get the game over with.
Good luck in your next 20 years

Blackhawk

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

* Give B a team warning for delay of game.

As Henry Kissinger would say, "Under vot teory" (under what theory)? This is not one of the official delay warnings allowed.

When in doubt - tee 'em up.

[firstyearref]

We were playing college rules, where the top spaces (closest to the shooter) must be vacated. That is where B1 and B3 were standing. I told them to move down, and they "dared" me to T them up.

Eventually, another player on team B said game over and both teams just quit playing. That worked for me.

I guess what I'm asking is if at any point I had the authority and the grounds to just forfiet the game. Any more T's were really useless, since Team B was just taunting me, were already losing, and were going to be eliminated from the post-season tournament at that point. They really had nothing to lose except their reputation, which they really never had.



[Edited by firstyearref on Mar 12th, 2003 at 02:01 PM]

[Blackhawk357]

Originally posted by firstyearref

I guess what I'm asking is if at any point I had the authority and the grounds to just forfiet the game. Any more T's were really useless, since Team B was just taunting me, were already losing, and were going to be eliminated from the post-season tournament at that point.

[Edited by firstyearref on Mar 12th, 2003 at 02:01 PM]

You absoultely have the authority to forfiet the game. Weather you had grounds or not is a "feel" thing. It takes a very extreme situation to do that, but it sounds like it could have been a consideration in this game. I think I would have had a very serious discusion with team B's coach first, it's not likely that he/she would have wanted that to happen.

Blackhawk

[firstyearref]

Originally posted by Blackhawk357

You absoultely have the authority to forfiet the game. Weather you had grounds or not is a "feel" thing. It takes a very extreme situation to do that, but it sounds like it could have been a consideration in this game. I think I would have had a very serious discusion with team B's coach first, it's not likely that he/she would have wanted that to happen.

Blackhawk [/B]

This is where it gets better. This is our intramural leage, and is therefore quite informal. There aren't any coaches, the clock runs (until last two minutes), and we don't count personal fouls.

[Grail]

I worked hundreds of IM games during my college years and in my experience your choices are to eject the players and/or forfeit the game. At my school a forfeited game caused teams to forfeit sportmanship dollars that they had paid at the start of the season (very effective).

If you don't want to take those actions, let A shoot with B in an illegal spot. If the shot goes in, A gets the point and you go on. If not, it is a violation and A gets to shoot again.

Regardless of all of the above, report the offending players to the League Manager. We used to ban players from all IM activities if they could not learn to play by the rules.

[RefSouthAlb]

This is where it gets better. This is our intramural leage, and is therefore quite informal. There aren't any coaches, the clock runs (until last two minutes), and we don't count personal fouls.

Informal??

Not counting fouls.

Crazy!!!

You don't need to take that kind of behaviour.

By all means, end the game and get out of there. If the league isn't willing to implement proper rules (Not counting personal fouls?) you are asking for trouble.

[Blackhawk357]

Originally posted by RefSouthAlb
This is where it gets better. This is our intramural leage, and is therefore quite informal. There aren't any coaches, the clock runs (until last two minutes), and we don't count personal fouls.

Informal??

Not counting fouls.

Crazy!!!

You don't need to take that kind of behaviour.

By all means, end the game and get out of there. If the league isn't willing to implement proper rules (Not counting personal fouls?) you are asking for trouble.

Absolutely ~ Good Bye, this one's over with!

[Stan]

Originally posted by Blackhawk357
Welcome.

Good luck in your next 20 years

Blackhawk

Lets say the kid is a 22 yr old senior. Plus 20 years. Equals 42. Geez, I'm older than that and I'm just starting. Is there hope?

[firstyearref]

Originally posted by Stan

Lets say the kid is a 22 yr old senior. Plus 20 years. Equals 42. Geez, I'm older than that and I'm just starting. Is there hope?

Actually, I'm an 18 year old freshmen. Go figure.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Stan

Lets say the kid is a 22 yr old senior. Plus 20 years. Equals 42. Geez, I'm older than that and I'm just starting. Is there hope?

There had better be!! I started at 42, and so far, I've done pretty well for myself. The secret, Stan, is to use all the accumulated wisdom to be more circumspect than a youngster. At least, I flatter myself that's what is doing it for me. Remember, old age and treachery will beat youth and zeal every time!