I was lead and partner was just about to cross midcourt still counting for back court. Point ugly crossover to left hand double dribble. Partner behind player still couldn't see it. I called it. Much more experienced official said I went fishing. I took that to mean ignore it if is out of your primary. Just kind of bugged me that some officials take offense if you call in their area. Everyone says this is very political and you'd hate to piss off the wrong official by doing this. So to be polically correct do you ignore calls outside your primary. Because I probably wouldn't do it again even if everyone in the gym saw it.
"Hey it wasn't my call coach" This really bugged Me.
Let me say the comment came from official who was watching the game. My partner was fine with the call.

It's a gray area. If you can go and get it without making your partner look like a fool, have a patient whistle, let him have a crack, and then take it. If you've got to use a global satellite tracker to phone in the call, let it go. There's a point (which I cannot give by steps or feet, it's just a feel) at which I won't extend my boundaries on calls like this.

On the other hand, if you are looking and concentrating on your own area, you'll never see this...:)

You really are combining too many things together and getting offended by them.

First of all, the call that you made was right in front of your partner. Let him live or die with that call. You should not even be looking there according to your story. What are you missing by looking at this play?

Secondly, what does this have to do with being offended by calling outside your area? It does not seem that anyone got offended by your call. An experienced official just suggested that you went fishing. It sounds like he was telling the truth by your own post here. Also understand what you feel is a carry, your partner might not feel is a carry. Let your partner make that call.

Finally you are addressing an issue that appears to be your own. No one said that you had to say, "That is not my area." But if a coach asks you a question about a call that your partner makes, it is perfectly acceptable to say, "he had a better look at it than I did." I tell coaches all the time, "that is his primary, he saw the whole thing." But that does not seem to be the issue here. Hell, you can say nothing.

Peace

I know I shouldn't have been looking but I guess my question is if you look up and see it do you call it or ignore it because its outside your primary and its the political thing to do?

You pre-game this. "I don't care if it's right in front of my nose, the most important thing is to get the call right." Then see what partner says. Some say, "me too." Others, "I'm calling my primary, you leave it alone." You do whichever he says.

When I think partner didn't see it, and everyone else in the gym did, I'll take it, unless this person has given me a specific hands-off message. If you're a long way away, close like crazy, and delay the whistle a little. If a coach says anything, the best sentence is, "He was focusing on the division line" or "He was watching the defender for contact," or some such. If an eval or observer makes a comment, you say, We pre-gamed that and he was okay with it.

I did that last month
 

Three-man; Small College men. I'm Lead on the baseline.

Blue dribbling the ball just crossed Division Line in the center of the circle.
Center was slower than usual, Trail was in good position 2 steps behind the dribbler and near the sideline.
From behind, White, surprisingly, reached over dribbler's shoulder (really a dumb foul with no chance) at the ball but got all shoulder. Dribbler stuttered on the contact, but continued toward me. About the time that happened, all of "my players" moved to either side, and there I was looking directly at the dang play.

Though I didn't consciously think about it, I knew my Trail was straight-lined and that my Center wasn't really looking.
Anyway, when "the Red Sea parted" there was the foul so clear, and so in front of me (<u>48' away !</u>), and my whistle went off before I could even think.

Well, neither partner complained to me, though I am sure they were wondering, "What the Hey!". As soon as we got to the lockers, I aplologized frequently for going after that foul.

I wished I hadn't, but "the Red Sea parted" and there was the Promised Land.

It happens.
mick

Know your primary, secondary and the gray area like the palm of your hand and try to avoid long distance calls.
It's a good habit to get into especially if you don't know your partner's game. The experienced official picked out your fishing call because it was so obvious. Trust his advice as well as your partner on the court and always give them the benefit of the doubt. If your partner kicked the call then let him die with the call. And about your statement of some officials take offense when outside calls are made in there primary, well they should especially if other officials are reaching right in front of their partners play. Regardless if your partner is fine with the call/s.

There should be no poilitics between you and your partner
only trust.

I worked with a veteran official (25+ yrs) this season. In our pre-game he stated: "I have no ego on the court. If you see something I miss, by all means, call it." Of course, that did not mean for me to be reffing his primary the whole game. In general, I agree with his approach, as long as both refs use common sense. I have been "jammed up, and too close to the action" at times, where my partner called a travel or double dribble, or whose OOB (and bailed me out, more or less). This can happen on a quick transition when the majority of players shift very close to you becoming the new trail (for example).

On the other hand, I do not appreciate my partner blowing from the 3 point arc when I have an OOB call under the hoop on the endline. If I need help (which is highly unlikely in this situation) I will make eye contact. Otherwise, there should be one whistle and point only (mine). If our positions were switched, I would keep quiet unless asked (even if I thought I saw something defferent).

As I stated above, common sense and team work...

I believe you have to ignore it. If you're looking all over the court, you're going to see things your partner missed, or that you think he missed. Even if he has no problem with it, I'd still stay away.

And, I agree with Rut. There's the possibility of too many other things going on when you're L, looking at the ball at the division line.

I think the most important thing is this. If you weren't ball hawking, you never would have seen it. Stay in your area and watch off ball.

Check the ego at the door
 

Pregame, I ask my partner to help in watching for traveling in the blocks, because I'm usually up high with my eyes watching ball, hands, body contact, and if the guy doesn't have an ego to bruise, he'll say "Do the same for me". Best way to ref a game... Check your ego at the gymnasium door, I'm there to make sure the game is played by the rules, not to make a prettyboy official feel good about himself.
I agree with the concensus on ballhawkers; watch offball as much as possible, but if you see it, and it isn't called, do the right thing.

[Edited by theshortbaldref on Mar 10th, 2003 at 09:49 PM]

Tis a shame that you made that call. Makes you and your partner look bad. Two wrongs do not make a right. You were ball-watching and had no confidence in your partner.

You know, I sense a lot of sanctimonious attitudes here.

Sometimes, just sometimes, something happens that is not expected.

I was working a girls' varsity game earlier this season. I was trail with an unattended ball handler coming up the floor.

I looked into the frontcourt to assess whether I'd need to officiate a trap when my partner blew his whistle, coming out hard and calling a double dribble. Well, who knew that a varsity player couldn't bring the ball up the court? The next dead ball I thanked my partner for covering my butt. Sounds like some people here would have bruised egos and be annoyed that he "poached" a call from me. Well, boo hoo.

My favorite part of the game is off-ball officiating, but that doesn't mean that we don't see what happens out of our primary, especially if the angle is right.

I've been calling basketball for 15 years and I've been fortunate enough to work some great high school games with some great officials. The best officials work together, leave their egos at the door, know their responsibilities, AND know when it's appropriate to help out.

I don't know whether it was appropriate in your situation. If it's a borderline violation, then you should let it go. But if it is a violation that is obvious to the world and you're convinced your partner didn't see it, then by all means call it. If your partner can't handle it and would rather work as two solo officials than as a team, then that's his problem.

Rich

I think there is a difference between having the angle on a play in your secondary area and calling a violation right in from of your partner from 40'. Trust your partner. If he needs help, he'll ask.

Also, I agree it sounds like you were ball watching. It's a hard habit to break and you will find yourself in more situations like this if you don't concentrate more on your primary responsibilities.

And rainmaker nailed it - pre-game!!!!!

Some of "what to call outside your primary" depends on how bad the foul / violation is.

The original poster described the play as "ugly crossover" -- that could mean anything from "awkward" (no call), to "defense did something marginally illegal to cause a violation" (call the defense or pass on both), to "physically held the ball in both hands for a couple of seconds before resuming the dribble" (call it).

The evaluator wasn't (or shouldn't have been) saying "never call a violation not in your area", bur rather "be 110% sure that (a) your partner missed it and (b) it needs to be called."

It does *not*, at face value, sound like ball-watching. For goodness sakes, some of you guys act like we officiate with megaphones over our heads -- even when the ball is in the trails primary, there are many times when the ball and the ballhandler are right where the lead official is looking.

Bob nailed it, better than I could. If it is something that needs to be called, call it. But I get the impression that there are some here that would pass on a violation like the one described by Bob *just because* it isn't in their primary.

How does that improve the game or improve the officiating TEAM on the floor?

Rich

How does it improve the game or the officiating TEAM on the floor for one partner to be watching the ball all over the court and calling violations all over the court?? Don't get me wrong, I agree with Bob's post...the phrasing we use out here in the wild west is "If it's blood and guts, come and get it"...had a play in my game Sat. where my C had to come across and get a block above the head of the key because there was a screen up high and my view was cut off...BUT, it was a block where both offensive and defensive players went to the floor...it needed to be called...I'm not so sure that an "unattended" guard who double dribbles in the back-court is one that NEEDS to be gotten by the distant partner...

Steve, it’s obvious you disagree with the "fishing" criticism and have talked to several people (and us) about it. I tend to agree that you should have passed up the whistle but I wasn’t there. Even if the criticism wasn’t warranted, I suggest you shy away from all that political stuff, trust your partner, concentrate on your primary area of responsibility, work the angles and call what you see. The sea may part and you will be faced with this again. A good pre-game will let you work through it without a second thought.

It's all about appearance then. If you TRULY don't SEE anything happening, you won't see the blood and guts either. If you SEE the blood and guts, let me ask you -- what were you doing watching the ball?

Rich

While you are entitled to that opinion, it doesn't mean that others share it. My guess is that he was ball hawking. I may be wrong but I don't think that it's a bad assessment.

Quote:

For goodness sakes, some of you guys act like we officiate with megaphones over our heads -- even when the ball is in the trails primary, there are many times when the ball and the ballhandler are right where the lead official is looking.

No one has said that. It's simply better not to be staring in your partner's area. Evidently there are some differences in philosophy here but personally, I'm not going from the endline to the division line to make a palming call. #1, I'm not going to be looking out there, except as a secondary glance. #2, if the game is on the line, then he's gotta be in the game and make that call. #3, I'm not a "don't call in my area" guy. I'm not advocating that you should never call in your partner's primary. But when I'm on the endline and the ball is crossing the division line, I have no business making that call. If I do, where does it end? Can I run from the endline in the FC to the endline in the BC and call a spot violation?

Quote:

How does that improve the game or improve the officiating TEAM on the floor?

How does going half way down the floor to make a call that your partner should have made, improve the game? Why was the partner not in a position to see the play? Why can't he make the call? You've now told everyone in the gym that he sucks and you're having to carry him. He can't do his job. And if for some reason he did see it and passed on, you've really screwed the pooch.

Do you call everything you see, even if it happens in your area? My bet is that you don't. So, why would you go the half the length of the floor to make a call that has absolutely nothing to do with your responsibility?

No one is advocating that we have to wear blinders. But there have to be limits as to what we see and what we call on the floor. Is it about appearance, as you suggest? Yes, it is to some extent. If we don't look like we know what we're doing, then yes, we lose credibility.

No it's not all about appearance, and I don't believe I said that...call what needs to be called is what I said...if you think a double dribble call on an unguarded player in the back court needs to be called from the Lead position, then you go for it...just don't expect many people to understand that one...if it is a situation like the one I described from sat., then my C was helping out with the blind side screen and was able to pick up the call that caused two players to end up on the floor and the ball to go sailing oob...if you can't see the difference between the two types of plays, then so be it...

This is why I agree with Tony.
 

If you make this call once, you will be expected to make this call again. You might be 100% right on the call, but then the next call you will be expected to make again. This is the point you will get in trouble. I pretty much work with a lot of the same guys, this does not hardly happen to us in a season, let alone in one game. It sounds to me like this official was ball hawking and called something that many of us would not even be looking at. At this position I am looking for contact, not palming violations. The contact fouls are the things that will get you in trouble, not the "judgement" violations. This has nothing to do with ego, this has to do with trusting your partner. Because if we start calling things all over the court, why are their more than one of us out there?

Peace

Just to be clear:

I agree that I would never, not in a million years, call palming from the baseline to the division line. The one my partner called was a pick the ball up in both hands and then a dribble.

What I was trying to do with my posts is to show that there is a difference between SEEING what happens outside your primary and CALLING something borderline outside your primary.

The posts that caught my eye and the posts I responded to were the ones that said, "What are you doing watching the ball?"

C'mon -- all of us SEE things out of our primaries all the time. I know for a fact that when the ball is still in the backcourt and the players are coming down the floor I SEE the ball coming up. I'm officiating my primary, but I occasionally see things that may or may not be violations or fouls.

When I work varsity-level-or-higher ball, I expect my partner to cover his half of the floor -- we'd get killed any other way, especially since we still work 2-man. We pregame certain situations where I want his help (like when I'm close to the player inside and watching for contact high, I appreciate help with the feet) and there's a give and take.

The original poster may be a ball-hawker, but I didn't get that impression. I did get the impression that the evaluator could've done a better job explaining WHY he shouldn't make that call.

Rut, I think, did a great job (except for the ball-hawking bit) and so did some other people.

Rich

The post dealt with a palming call at the division line, that the L made from the baseline. Don't read anything more into the replies than that.

If I get in trouble with a call that I shouldn't have made, it's usually because I was watching an area that I shouldn't have been watching. That was the purpose of my statement. Perhaps that's not true of everyone but I find it's true for me. Don't confuse seeing something across the floor with looking for something where you shouldn't have been looking.

I agree that we can't just look in our own primary. That's impossible. And, I don't deny that the evaluator did a poor job with his explanation. But, as Rut said, if you're going to look outside your area, you better get solid, illegal contact, not a cheap violation.

Other perspective. . .
 

I call a LOT of 8th grade ball at a very competitive level. Unfortunately, the refs are not as advanced as the players. I get a lot of guys who have been reffing longer than I who believe they own the floor. I see lead officials watching the ball as it comes across half court more times than I care to count. I've had the lead official blow a 'carry' in my area because of a high dribble when I had nothin'. Personally, it pisses me off and makes me wonder why I'm even there.

From 50 feet away from the play, calling anything short of an absolute train wreck is asking for trouble.

Thanks Rich I feel better hearing different oppinions here.
My intitial thought was do you make split second decisions while considering all the political ramifications. My whistle would be in my pocket. I know we all work hard to stay off ball but I feel you call what you see and both partners do that it has to better for the game.
Thanks guys. That was fun.

The NBA did a study a few years back, and found that - upon review - some ungodly percentage of calls made "out of the primary area" were wrong...Chuck or Drake or someone can probably supply the actual number, but I believe it was 85% or higher...so the moral would be, stay in your primary...

Just to add something to this thread, short and sweet.

I pride myself in not calling in my partner's primary...unless of course it is a "trainwreck" and "needs to be called"...a dribbling violation, not!

Well, as a matter of fact I got "dinged" in last week's State Tournament for doing the very thing I abhor.
The evaluator stated that I should not have "bailed out my partner with the foul call"...at the time I did not think I was "stretching" to much to make the call as the "Redsea parted" (I like that mick):) and I made the call. On further review I probably did stretch too much and should have been dinged.

There is plenty of "game" in your primary...we don't need to go looking for more stuff in your partner's primary.
Besides, it's embarrasing to have a traveling call right in front of you by your partner "miles" away...OK I said it...I have an ego...don't we all? ;)

RD

Yes, and not because it is politically correct.