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-   -   Raging official Head butts player (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/7831-raging-official-head-butts-player.html)

onejewlia Sun Mar 09, 2003 01:57pm

This is more than a message its a question for the officials. At a game that I recently attended at a local ymca an official got into a altercation with a player. It began with the player calling out to one of the referees that he should call 3 seconds in the lane. The other official immediatly told the player that he had a technical foul and to sit down and "Shut up". Of course the player was a little upset about the way the officail spoke to him but he returned to his bench.( which I thought Was not a rule I thought that after the shots were made by the other team that the player could than re-enter the game and remain playing) He then began speaking with his other teammate about the incident. At that time the referee heard him speaking on the call and called a second technical foul and told him to leave the gym. The player was very upset at this time but remained in control. he did tell the referee no and became very vocal. He then began speaking with the director of the organization about his ejection from the gym. the game continued and the other team shot all four shots. the referee then stepped off the court,walked over to the players bench and head-butted the player causing the player two front teeth to be knocked out. blood was ru8nning down the player face and of course he retaliated with a right hook to the referee. My question is after this long story..... What are the rules and regulations of the officials in the game of basketball? Also isn't there a code of ethics and an oath that a referee must follow?

ChuckElias Sun Mar 09, 2003 02:06pm

I don't really know what to say about this. Nobody headbutts another person for yelling "3 seconds". And very few people use a headbutt to hit another person in the mouth. That's probably the worst place to headbutt someone.

There's much much more to this story. Either the story is somewhat exaggerated, or the official is totally unbalanced and should be medicated heavily on and off the court.

Chuck

firedoc Sun Mar 09, 2003 02:07pm

Certainly there is an accepted standard of behavior for EVERYONE in this world, including officials, players, spectators etc. My guess is that there is a lot missing in your question and no one can judge what went on without ALL of the information.

onejewlia Sun Mar 09, 2003 02:18pm

ALL the information was given, I was a spectator at the game and attend basketball games on a regular basis. obviously the behavoir was inappropriate but that was not my question ..... My question is ....What are the rules and regulations and the code of ethics and oath that a referee must take.

Mregor Sun Mar 09, 2003 02:43pm

Quote:

Originally posted by onejewlia
ALL the information was given, I was a spectator at the game and attend basketball games on a regular basis. obviously the behavoir was inappropriate but that was not my question ..... My question is ....What are the rules and regulations and the code of ethics and oath that a referee must take.
Here is the code of ethics from the NFHS website:
http://www.nfhs.org/NFOA/NFOA_code.htm

I would think that both civil and criminal charges are in order if your account of the situation is complete and accurate.

JRutledge Sun Mar 09, 2003 03:05pm

I have heard enough
 
Quote:

Originally posted by onejewlia
This is more than a message its a question for the officials. At a game that I recently attended at a local <i>YMCA</i> an official got into a altercation with a player.
Let us not go any further. This is at the <b>local YMCA</b>, that speaks volumes right there. And the NF or NCAA has nothing to do with the behavior of this individual. This basically amounts to a pick up game and two players getting into a fight. I would assume that the league that sanctioned this activity would have something to say, but it is not at the same standards or as anything to do with "real officials" or anyone that had to go thru a qualification process to just have the previlidge to officiate that game. The people you need to talk to is the local YMCA and their administrators. Talking to us really is not going to solve your problem. Because outside that <b>local YMCA</b>, we would probably not know much about the expectations of this official or any that do this league.

Peace

Adam Sun Mar 09, 2003 04:20pm

His majesty has spoken. :(
Obviously, your point is valid, JRut. But are we to believe that we aren't allowed to discuss this any further?

JRutledge Sun Mar 09, 2003 04:25pm

Not comparable at all!!!
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
His majesty has spoken. :(
Obviously, your point is valid, JRut. But are we to believe that we aren't allowed to discuss this any further?

You can discuss this further if you choose, but to put a YMCA ref on the same plane as a ref that belongs to an a state association and has to go thru background checks to officiate a Freshman game is quite ridiculous. Not at all the same thing on any day of the week.

Peace

Adam Sun Mar 09, 2003 04:31pm

I agree with you. Not only that, but I don't recall taking any oath, at least not since I enlisted in the military 9 years ago.

Adam

JRutledge Sun Mar 09, 2003 04:49pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
I agree with you. Not only that, but I don't recall taking any oath, at least not since I enlisted in the military 9 years ago.

Adam

You do not have to take an oath to follow a code of ethics. But if anyone can ref a YMCA game, I find it hard to believe that you can hold them or would try to hold them to a standard. This ref probably is just reffing to be reffing and not a "real" ref with his state or association. It is like someone giving financial advice, but not a member of the SEC.

Peace

Adam Sun Mar 09, 2003 04:53pm

Once again, I agree. I'd only add that he's likely not to go very far with that kind of attitude and quick whistle. He probably won't even be allowed into a Y any time soon.

JRutledge Sun Mar 09, 2003 05:05pm

Rec. Meeting
 
I had a HS officiating friend attend a meeting of an assignor that assigns several Park District games and leagues over the basketball season. Well he told me that <b>half the guys that were there in attendance were not HS or College Officials.</b> So there were several officials that worked for this assignor that had no State License to officiate basketball. That says it all for me.

Peace

Adam Sun Mar 09, 2003 05:13pm

That's interesting. Most of the Y stuff around here is assigned by a member of our association. He gets his names mostly from association rolls. YMCA, AAU, and other rec stuff gets assigned mostly to officials who also do HS stuff (mostly sub-varsity). So, if there was an official who behaved as badly as was reported by onejewlia, there would be some repercussions.
Obviously, this varies by region. I just thought that was interesting.

Adam

TXMATTHEW05 Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:00pm

That's rather arrogant, wouldn't you say, JT?

All I referee is a jrNBA league. Does that make you better than me? Just because you have a paper card that says you're able to referee, does that make you more able to call the game?

Maybe this guy has too important of a job to dedicate evenings of the week towards officiating, and he figured he'd make a few extra dollars on the side on a Saturday.

It's very pompous of you to assume that just because he doesn't belong to a state association, that he's just a regular volunteer dad. Take yourself off the pedestal.

I would also like to have you know that a partner of mine called D2 equivelant basketball in Germany - and he now just calls the jrNBA league. My, my...has he SUNK so LOW as to do a REC game? :eek: God Forbid!

:rolleyes:

ace Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:26pm

Amen man ... you were right. I get that sometimes... oh you do rec ball your no good or you have an easy job PSH! Coaches and parents taht think because they pay XX.XX at the begging of the year its their ticket to harrass the crap out of you? No... I've been to plenty of high school games. I have talked to college officials. They all have told me that recreation ball is someo f the hardest to call. Does thatm ake me better than you? One thing my grandparents always taught me was

"When you climb your ladder dont forget those first two steps. They take the most weight on a ladder and they just may fail you one day on your way down."

I know you didnt imply you are a better referee than us but i am going to take a stand with my fellow young guy. On this one.

just because we're 15/16 doesnt mean we can't handle the game, the coaches, the parents, the pressure. I've seen adult partners who have called High school games ask me if the coach is getting to me and this is long before i feel the coach is getting out of hand. I mean ... how many 15/16 year old referees do you know that head-butt people?

Dan_ref Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:41pm

Geeze...head butt to the mouth? Probably aiming for the nose - as Chuck said you don't want to bang your forehead on someone's front teeth. That said...the average human will not have the presence of mind (there's that word again) to throw a punch after losing his two front teeth...most likely will go to his knees with his hands on his face.

Good story though.

JRutledge Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:02am

Well......
 
Quote:

Originally posted by TXMATTHEW05
That's rather arrogant, wouldn't you say, JT?

All I referee is a jrNBA league. Does that make you better than me? Just because you have a paper card that says you're able to referee, does that make you more able to call the game?

Maybe this guy has too important of a job to dedicate evenings of the week towards officiating, and he figured he'd make a few extra dollars on the side on a Saturday.

It's very pompous of you to assume that just because he doesn't belong to a state association, that he's just a regular volunteer dad. Take yourself off the pedestal.

I would also like to have you know that a partner of mine called D2 equivelant basketball in Germany - and he now just calls the jrNBA league. My, my...has he SUNK so LOW as to do a REC game? :eek: God Forbid!

:rolleyes:


Just because you are a referee, does not mean you have to follow any code of ethics or follow any standards to put a whistle in your mouth. If you think it does, I will show you several leagues around me that has guys "doing it for the money" all over.

Peace

onejewlia Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:48am

Thank you for your responses to my questions..... I do understand the grief that the fans and players give the officials. I felt as though this ref has gone too far. Although the players teeth were knocked out during the game I see him on a regular basis at different leagues throughout the city. from my understanding he has been playing in city,county and y leagues for the past ten years without any problems.It is also my understanding that the referee is very hot-headed and arrogant.... as far as his state license that Im not sure of I do know that he is wel known throughout the city from refereeing a variety of leagues. My concern is not only for the victim in this situation but for other that may encounter this ref in other games.....

rockyroad Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:19am

It sure seems that something of this magnitude would have made it into a newspaper someplace. Do you have any links that you could give us that we could read?? I would like to hear some more about this situation if possible...

ChuckElias Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by onejewlia
ALL the information was given, I was a spectator at the game and attend basketball games on a regular basis.
Julia, I mean no offense, so I hope these comments aren't taken the wrong way. But as I said before, there is very clearly more to this story. While your account gives the basic facts (a technical foul was called, a player was headbutted), not "ALL" the information was given. You said that the player

Quote:

began speaking with his other teammate about the incident. At that time the referee heard him speaking on the call and called a second technical foul and told him to leave the gym. The player was very upset at this time but remained in control. he did tell the referee no and became very vocal.

So we have the player talking to a teammate, which earned him another technical foul. Clearly he wasn't saying anything very complimentary to the official. Then the player "became very vocal" toward the referee. I'm sure he wasn't telling the ref how slim he looked in his stripes. After that, the player goes to complain to the site director. What the heck is he saying during this whole time?

My point Julia is that there is a big difference between a player saying, "Ref, I never touched him!" and a player cursing or insulting the official or directing racial slurs toward him, or whatever. I have no idea if any of those things were said. But you haven't given us ALL the information. That was all I meant. There has to be more to this story than a kid got mad and a ref headbutted him. There just has to be. Almost nobody headbutts another person violently without some severe provocation. So for this ref to act that way, I'm just wondering what (if any) provocation was given.

Very respectfully,

Chuck

Adam Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:41pm

Also, what was the kid doing saying "No" to a ref who had just ejected him from the gym? Regardless of whether the T was justified, the player needs to leave the gym as instructed. It's out of his hands. Fairness has nothing to do with it now.

BlackFox40 Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:51pm


The officials lost control of the game (period) inexcusable.
As for rules and regulations and code of ethics and oath (one way or another pertains to everyone in the gym) All of the above have been broken and all is to pay the consequences.


Blackhawk357 Mon Mar 10, 2003 01:45pm


These two postsers make very good points.


Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Also, what was the kid doing saying "No" to a ref who had just ejected him from the gym? Regardless of whether the T was justified, the player needs to leave the gym as instructed.

and

Quote:

Originally posted by BlackFox40

The officials lost control of the game (period) inexcusable.
As for rules and regulations and code of ethics and oath (one way or another pertains to everyone in the gym) All of the above have been broken and all is to pay the consequences.

I would assume that there will be consequences for both player and more-so, the official. No official, licensed or not, should go to that extreme, except maybe to defend himself against a physical attack. In lieu of that and, of course, not knowing the entire set of circumstances, if it had been one of my officials there would be a court order before there were any more games for him. Weather there was any verbal provocation or not, an action like that needs to be dealt with through law enforcement and the judicial system.

I also agree with Chuck's thought, that seems to be, in my words (I don't want to put words in your mouth, so correct me if I'm wrong) ~ You can't condemn officiating as a whole for the actions of one man, especially if he is not a licensed official. JMHO


Blackhawk

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Mar 10, 2003 01:51pm

I have decided to jump into this fray concerning codes of ethics.

I think that we can all agree that there are many youth and adult recreational leagues all over the country that use officials that are not certified in some manner. Certified meaning registered with the StateHSAA, a member of IAABO (such as in manner states in the NE part of the USA or parts of Canada), member of a LOA (as in California), or one could be a FIBA official (if we are speaking of an official from another country).

I coach our nine year old son's 10U basketball team in a Toledo Park and Rec. league where a good percentage of officials are not OhioHSAA registered officials; that means these officials have no training as basketball officials nor knowledge of the rules and mechanics of officiating (and their officiating shows it). To make matters even worse, that Table Officials are hired through a temporary employment agency (meaning that many of them could not hold a job at McDonald's) and these people have absolutely no training to do the job as Scorer or Timer and their performance at the games show it.

The game officials, whether OhioHSAA or not, receive $20 per game. This is the fifth year that I have watched our sons play in games sponsored by the Toledo P/R and I can count on one hand the number of officials who gave a professional account of themselves. And I have to sit there and keep my thoughts to myself.

Where is this post going, you ask? Sports officiating is a profession masquarading as advocation, no matter whether one is officiating jr. H.S. games or Div. I games. When one accepts money to officiate, that person is expected to perform at a certain minimum level of competency. A code of ethics spells out the type of conduct that is required of a sports official (or engineer, there are many readers out there who have read my $100 postings concerning professionalism).

A code of ethics for a profession gives the practioners of that profession quidelines on how to conduct themselves. There are times when a situation arises that is out of the norm and a code of ethics helps one navigate through these abnormal situations.

tharbert Mon Mar 10, 2003 02:07pm

I'm wondering first what message you have for us officials Jewlia. While I was reading the initial post, I thought it belonged on a police blotter rather than a forum on officiating.

When the violence started, the referee was not being a referee, he was being a thug. I hope the cops were called. I wouldn't have hesitated dialing 911 and letting the cops sort this out.

Jewlia, this has nothing to do with code of ethics or rules of the game. This is men behaving badly.

$90 fine plus court costs, 3 months probation, 30 days of community service!

Mark Padgett Mon Mar 10, 2003 02:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tharbert

$90 fine plus court costs, 3 months probation, 30 days of community service!

Reminds me of the Monty Python skit where a man is brought before the magistrate. Before the charge is even read, the judge sentences the man to be hanged by the neck until dead. When told that the charge is just illegal parking, the judge says, "Oh. Ten pound fine then."

PGCougar Mon Mar 10, 2003 02:34pm

Code of ethics
 
Seems to me that there are already rules and codes governing this behavior - namely the civil and criminal codes of NY. I don't think you'll find the answer here because whatever occured wasn't related to the game once the agression manifested itself into an assault.

Also seems to me that the forum where facts, questions and answers pertaining to this incident ought to be entertained is the courtroom, not here.

Phil

ChuckElias Mon Mar 10, 2003 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Sports officiating is a profession masquarading as advocation.
Grrrrrrr!! This is false, Mark! Every once in a while you make this statement and it's just false. For 95% (or more) of officials, officiating is not a profession; any more than raking leaves is a profession for the teenager who does it on weekends to make extra money. It's a silly claim, and I don't understand why you keep making it. Can it become a profession for a very few who are able to make their living at it? Yes. And if this is all you mean, then fine, I agree with you. But does that mean it's my profession? Obviously not.

Saying that officiating is a profession masquarading as an avocation is the same as saying that volunteers who are picking up trash in the park are part of the garbage collection profession. It's just silly.

Quote:

When one accepts money to officiate, that person is expected to perform at a certain minimum level of competency.
True, but that hardly qualifies it to be one's profession.

We've been through this before :( http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=4933 Also, http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...?threadid=2881

Chuck

[Edited by ChuckElias on Mar 27th, 2003 at 08:56 AM]

JRutledge Mon Mar 10, 2003 03:45pm

Chuck and Mark.
 
I actually agree with both of you. Officiating is a profession masquerading as a vocation, but it depends on the level that you are doing it. The rec. official or YMCA official is not on the same level as the officials that has a license or does D3 College or Junior College ball. The rec. officials or YMCA officials could have literally walked off the street and put on a shirt and put the whistle in their mouth. But the official that has a license or went throught some kind of qualification process is acting much more like someone that is working towards a job. Now it might not be their only job, but it is much like a job. I do not know about anyone here, I have to make commitments far in advance and if I have to break them or find myself in a conflict, it can be more nerve racking than not going into work with a boss I see everyday. If it is not a job for me and many others, I have to file taxes on it, make schedules and stick to them, and attend meetings quite frequently. If that is not a profession, I do not know what is.

Peace

ChuckElias Mon Mar 10, 2003 04:14pm

Re: Chuck and Mark.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Officiating is a profession masquerading as a vocation
Um. . . huh? http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/dunno.gif

JRutledge Mon Mar 10, 2003 04:17pm

Sorry
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Officiating is a profession masquerading as a vocation
Um. . . huh? http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/dunno.gif

Oops. Advocation.

Peace

ChuckElias Mon Mar 10, 2003 06:10pm

Re: Sorry
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Oops. Advocation.
Try one more time. . . :)

Malcolm Tucker Mon Mar 10, 2003 06:19pm

HEAR HEAR !!!!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I have decided to jump into this fray concerning codes of ethics.

I think that we can all agree that there are many youth and adult recreational leagues all over the country that use officials that are not certified in some manner. Certified meaning registered with the StateHSAA, a member of IAABO (such as in manner states in the NE part of the USA or parts of Canada), member of a LOA (as in California), or one could be a FIBA official (if we are speaking of an official from another country).

I coach our nine year old son's 10U basketball team in a Toledo Park and Rec. league where a good percentage of officials are not OhioHSAA registered officials; that means these officials have no training as basketball officials nor knowledge of the rules and mechanics of officiating (and their officiating shows it). To make matters even worse, that Table Officials are hired through a temporary employment agency (meaning that many of them could not hold a job at McDonald's) and these people have absolutely no training to do the job as Scorer or Timer and their performance at the games show it.

The game officials, whether OhioHSAA or not, receive $20 per game. This is the fifth year that I have watched our sons play in games sponsored by the Toledo P/R and I can count on one hand the number of officials who gave a professional account of themselves. And I have to sit there and keep my thoughts to myself.

Where is this post going, you ask? Sports officiating is a profession masquarading as advocation, no matter whether one is officiating jr. H.S. games or Div. I games. When one accepts money to officiate, that person is expected to perform at a certain minimum level of competency. A code of ethics spells out the type of conduct that is required of a sports official (or engineer, there are many readers out there who have read my $100 postings concerning professionalism).

A code of ethics for a profession gives the practioners of that profession quidelines on how to conduct themselves. There are times when a situation arises that is out of the norm and a code of ethics helps one navigate through these abnormal situations.


Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:11pm

Chuck,

I did not say that we practice sports officiating as a profession in the same manner that I practice engineering as my profession. But sports officiating by its nature meets the definition of a profession. But sports officiating is an advocation because we do it for the "fun" and satisfaction that we receive for doing a job well done.

MTD, Sr.

ChuckElias Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
But sports officiating by its nature meets the definition of a profession.
Noooooooo, it doesn't. We've had this exact conversation before and you've broken out your Webster's. You provided a definition, and it clearly does not apply to sports officiating in general. Go back and search the threads, Mark. We've done this exact dance before.

Quote:

But sports officiating is an advocation
Again, no it's not. Crack that dictionary and I think you (and Jeff) will find that it's an "avocation". :)

Chuck

Dan_ref Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
But sports officiating by its nature meets the definition of a profession.
Noooooooo, it doesn't. We've had this exact conversation before and you've broken out your Webster's. You provided a definition, and it clearly does not apply to sports officiating in general. Go back and search the threads, Mark. We've done this exact dance before.

Quote:

But sports officiating is an advocation
Again, no it's not. Crack that dictionary and I think you (and Jeff) will find that it's an "avocation". :)

Chuck

Chuck, you are a pit bull! Get 'em! Get 'em! :D

Anywho, this link might be useful to Rut & MTD

http://www.m-w.com/home.htm


JRutledge Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:54pm

Depends on the definition.
 
Vocation:

2 a : the work in which a person is regularly employed : <b>OCCUPATION</b> b : the persons engaged in a particular occupation.

Now I do not know about you, but I have been an official longer than I have been at any other job or activity. Part of the reason is the fact that I was in college and officiating paid many of my bills while I was not working at anything else. Maybe you are a teacher normally and officiating is what you do for extra money, but to me putting the time I do in officiating (year round for me) this might as well be a job. During the winter alone I do extensive travel and get a lot of money to do something that is only an activity.

Now I guess it comes down to how you look at it, but for me this is a job. I have to make several accomidations to maintain it and to work with the schedule I have. And for me the money goes to pay sevral bills. So it is not just a hobby for me. I run this as any other business I have been in, and for anyone here that has ever had their own business can understand. But then again, it is how you look at it.

Peace

Jurassic Referee Tue Mar 11, 2003 03:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]
Chuck, you are a pit bull! Get 'em! Get 'em!

[/B][/QUOTE]http://passapage.com/images/dogn_bone_md_wht.gif


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