When resetting the clock....

[ChampaignBlue]

is it to when the whistle blew or the foul occured? Last nights Ill/Wis game ended with a foul called and the clock run out. They went to the replay to put time on the clock and settled for .4 sec. It looked like foul was commited at .8 but ref blew at .2. What do they use to decide? Before anyone bashes me for sour grapes I thought it was a great game by two great teams that showed a lot of class before, during and after the game and you could not have showcased NCAA ball better if you scripted it. I particurally liked when the student section was counting Nick Smith to the bench after his 5th foul, he started to sit but stood back up just before his butt hit the chair to mess with them. He looked at them and smiled and they all laughed back with him, classic.

[johnSandlin]

If the clock runs out, and there was a foul called prior to the clock expiring, there is a rule in college basketball at the D-1 level only, allowing officials to go to television monitors court side to get the correct amount of time back on the clock.

[firedoc]

I'm not certain about the NCAA but in NFHS rules the timer has 1 second to react to the whistle and stop the clock. Therefore, if the official blows the whistle for a foul at 0.2 seconds left, the horn would likely sound to end the quarter. This is correct since it is within the 1 second reaction time. No time should be placed back on the clock. If this were the end of the 4th quarter then the foul shots would be taken ONLY if they would possibly make any difference in the final outcome. If it were the end of any other quarter, the shots would always be taken as part of that quarter. Remember that not all fouls are shooting fouls, especially early in each half.

[johnSandlin]

Right on firedoc with your reply. I had this happen to me a week ago tomorrow night in high school boys varsity game. Foul called, free throws involved, coach calling timeout just as the clock expires. We gave the exact same explanation to the coach as you just gave about the second reaction allowed by rule with the clock operator. The coach accepted the answer and the game was over. My two partners and I did not put any new amount of time back up on the game clock.

[ChampaignBlue]

Originally posted by johnSandlin
If the clock runs out, and there was a foul called prior to the clock expiring, there is a rule in college basketball at the D-1 level only, allowing officials to go to television monitors court side to get the correct amount of time back on the clock.

But what are they looking for? The point at which the foul occured or the point at which the foul was being called?

[firedoc]

In NCAA my guess would be that it is the time of the whistle. There is a normal reaction time for officials to first see the foul, register the information in the brain, and then blow the whistle. It is almost impossible to quantify the time for the first two steps, so the only definitive time frame is the whistle. Otherwise, you would have to put time back on the clock after EVERY whistle, whether for a foul or a violation.

[ChampaignBlue]

Originally posted by firedoc
In NCAA my guess would be that it is the time of the whistle. There is a normal reaction time for officials to first see the foul, register the information in the brain, and then blow the whistle. It is almost impossible to quantify the time for the first two steps, so the only definitive time frame is the whistle. Otherwise, you would have to put time back on the clock after EVERY whistle, whether for a foul or a violation.

That's what I thought too, just looking if there are actual guidelines they follow. Also, vis a vis fans rushing the court discussion earlier, could you imagine what would have happened if the refs T'd the pom pom girls that jumped up to the sideline after the made freethrow and surrounded the Ill player trying to inbound the ball? If he had decided to run the baseline instead of call timeout that would have put the refs in a bad position but like someone said earlier, if it gets called at a high profile D1 game it'd sure put a stop to it at all levels.

[johnSandlin]

Firedoc right on again. Clock operators react to the sound of the whistle not by sight. When you are dealing with clock issues, most of the time we are talking about the reaction time allowed by the clock operator to start or stop the clock.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by johnSandlin
If the clock runs out, and there was a foul called prior to the clock expiring, there is a rule in college basketball at the D-1 level only, allowing officials to go to television monitors court side to get the correct amount of time back on the clock.

Only in this specific sitch? Only D1? Got a rule on this?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Only in this specific sitch? Only D1? Got a rule on this?

NCAA 2-5:

Section 5. Officials Use of Replay/Television Equipment
Art. 1. Officials may use court-side replay equipment, videotape or television
monitoring only in situations involved in preventing or rectifying
a scoring or timing mistake or malfunctioning game clocks or shot
clocks, to determine if a fight occurred and those individuals who participated
in a fight, or to assess whether correctable errors 2-10.1.c, d, or
e need to be rectified.
Art. 2. At the end of the second half or at the end of any extra period, the
officials shall use replay equipment, videotape or television monitoring
B R -3 3 RULE 2-5/OFFICIALS AND THEIR DUTIES
that is located on a designated court-side table (i.e., within approximately
3 to 12 feet of the playing court), when such equipment is available, to
ascertain whether a try for field goal that will determine the outcome of
a game (win, lose, tie), and is attempted at or near the expiration of the
game clock, was released before the sounding of the period-ending horn.
A.R. 5. A1 releases a try for goal near or at the expiration of time for the game. The official
rules the field goal to be a successful two-point goal. Before an official goes to a courtside
monitor to confirm the status of the play, the coach from Team A requests a correctable
error on the grounds that the goal was counted erroneously and three points
should have been awarded. R U L I N G : It shall be permissible for the officials to use the
court-side monitor to determine if a goal has been counted erroneously. The officials
shall notify the coaches of both teams of their intention to use the court-side monitor for
this purpose. When the coach’s appeal is ruled to be incorrect, a 75-second timeout in
games not involving electronic media or either a 60- or 30-second timeout in games
involving electronic media shall be charged to his or her team. When that timeout
excedes the allotted number, an indirect technical foul shall be assessed. The officials
shall be required to use the court-side monitor to ascertain whether a try for field goal
that is game-deciding or will determine whether there is an(other) extra period was
taken at or near the expiration of the game clock was released before or after the sounding
of the game-clock horn.
Art. 3. Officials shall be permitted to consult a court-side monitor to
determine if a try for goal is a two- or three-point attempt, regardless
of whether the try is successful.
Art. 4. Officials shall not use a court-side monitor or court-side videotape
for judgment calls such as who fouled, basket interference, goaltending or
release of the ball before the sounding of the horn, with the exception of
the situations described in Rules 2-5.2 and 2-5.3.

[denref]

NFHS took out the "lag" time references several years ago. And replaced it with 5-10-1 which references "definitive information" relative to the time involved. 5-10-2 adds to that by allowing the official's count or other official information for use in making a correction. It used to be that if an official observed the clock to read 1:55 as the whistle blew and the clock continued to run 1:54,1:53,1:52, etc. you would reset to 1:54 giving the timer an allowance for "lag" time. That provision no longer exists and as long as the official(s) have definite information that the whistle blew at 1:55 you should reset to 1:55. Allowing "lag" time at 1:55 of any period might not be a problem however, allowing "lag" time with only a few seconds left could have harrowing ramifications.

Denny

[ChampaignBlue]

So if I understand Bob's posting the refs probably should have left the clock at 0:00.00 because there really wasn't an error. Can't expect the clock to stop that fast. But thinking back I do recall a game where they used the video to determine if the ball hit the rim (shot clock violation). I take it that they shouldn't have done that, right? That call was made memorable because Bill Walton, rule sage that he is, was pointing out to the crew that of course it hit the rim and the put back by his son should count.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

NCAA 2-5:

Section 5. Officials Use of Replay/Television Equipment...

big snip

...which was my point.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by denref
NFHS took out the "lag" time references several years ago. And replaced it with 5-10-1 which references "definitive information" relative to the time involved. 5-10-2 adds to that by allowing the official's count or other official information for use in making a correction. It used to be that if an official observed the clock to read 1:55 as the whistle blew and the clock continued to run 1:54,1:53,1:52, etc. you would reset to 1:54 giving the timer an allowance for "lag" time. That provision no longer exists and as long as the official(s) have definite information that the whistle blew at 1:55 you should reset to 1:55. Allowing "lag" time at 1:55 of any period might not be a problem however, allowing "lag" time with only a few seconds left could have harrowing ramifications.

Denny

That's not quite right, Denny.

If the timer stops the clock within (and including) 1 second, you leave the clock where it is.

If the timer lets more than 1 second run off the clock, then it's reset to the time of the whistle.

(That's FED, of course. In NCAA it's always set to the time of the whistle, and video can be used (if available at the table) to get it right.)

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by denref
NFHS took out the "lag" time references several years ago. And replaced it with 5-10-1 which references "definitive information" relative to the time involved.

Denny, this is just not correct. This year's rulebook is in my bag, but I'm looking at last year's book and the "lag time" principles are very definitely still in there. They are in the case book under 5.10.1B COMMENT.

Chuck