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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 01:05am
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quote: Sorry, but the higher ball you do the more you rely on your partner(s), trust that they can get the players organized and find the correct shooter, by keeping two numbers in your mind you could get the color or number screwed up at the bench. Bird doging as far as i know is being used less and less around the world. Associations are trying to get away with the intimidation factor it brings with it. Keep smiling  
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 04:27am
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quote: thank hoopsrefBC for letting me know. what level of ball are you doing? ------------------ Allways trying to get better! [This message has been edited by joselirizarry (edited August 30, 2000).]
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 08:59am
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quote: Hoopsref, You are correct. No bird dogging in CCA. But it is desirable for HS ball in Michigan and other United States. mick
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 02:45pm
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quote: ------------------ Allways trying to get better!
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 03:15pm
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I just want to take issue with what you said about your partner helping you out with the shooter the higher you go.
I have never heard that before, and I do think that you should not rely on your partner for information on the shooter and bonus. That is your responsibility. Your partner (especially in 3 man) may not have a clue who the foul is on or what you actually called. If they are doing their job all they would know is where you are putting the ball in. The only way that you are going to know the shooter is experience and game knowledge. After every foul you should try to give a quick look before the ball gets put in and see what the foul situation is (if they have a scoreboard that tells you). If your head is in the game you should know just by how many times a foul has been called on a team. You know by experience that this team has shot so many foul shots or has not. You know if they should be shooting or about to be shooting. But this comes with experience and taking your time. I had to learn this myself, sometimes the hard way.
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 04:20pm
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quote: mikeref in the 1999-2000 OFFICIALS MANUAL NATIONAL FEDERATION OF STSTE HIGH SCHOOL ASSOCIATIONS NOT HIGHER BALL. On page 35. Fouls 230. Its is imperative that a definite procedre in officiating mechanics be used when a foul occurs. The following duties should be performed in the order listed by the calling official: a. Informs the timer and alerts the scorer by sounding the whistle with a sharp blast while raising one hand, fist clenched, straight and high above the head. b. After a slight delay, extend the other hand, palm down toward the fouling player,s hips. c. While holding the foul signal, move near the fouling player, stop and verbally inform the plaer that he/she fouled by stating the shirt color and number. d. Lower the foul signal and only indicate the nature of the foul by giving a preliminary signal. e. Verbally give free-throw shooter,s number to the shooter and to the other official. Visually give the number of free throws to the free official. f. Indicate the throw-in spot if a throw-in wll follow. g. If a goal has been scored, signal to count as soon as it is legally scored. h. If the ball goes in the basket, it is the responsibility of the free official to communicate to the calling official "the ball went in." Now remember that this is only High School Ball not higher ball. DIV 3, DIV 2, DIV 1, CBA, WNBA, NBA, XYZ? ------------------ Allways trying to get better! [This message has been edited by joselirizarry (edited August 30, 2000).]
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 08:21pm
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quote: I'm have been officiating for about 9 years, and have done all levels of Ball from high school to junior college and some university exibition games. i average about 125 games a year. Mostly, i work our highest boys and girls level which is 'AAA' level. For the calling official not to have to worry about the shooter the partnerships trust level must be REALLY high. I work with about 20 officials on a continual basis so i must keep adjusting to their styles and techniques. Oh by the way...nothing says you don't have to remember the shooter, if your the calling official i just find it easier trying to remember i number. Keep smiling SH
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 08:50pm
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quote: I may be lucky...most of the partners i work with help me out by indicating that we're in bonus and who the shooter is. It not a matter of relying on them its more of a trust level. You are correct in that the non-calling official won't always know who the shooter is. In thoses situations it is necessary to indicate who the shooter is. If i working with a junior official i will ALWAYS try to know who the shooter is. Sometimes its a game within the game. (who has better management skill. Ever had a correctable error situation and tried to remember who the shooter was? I havn't but, have seen it happen at our provincial / state tournament, working at the bench as the backup official it was nice to be able to flash them the shooter number when they couldn't figure it out. The beer was nice after the game. Your again right...It's all about game experience and knowledge of the game. I've only conplete about 1200 games so i still have a long way to go. I just try to stay focused and aware of everything on the court. By me as the non calling official recogning who the shooter is i feel that i am in complete control. I usuall try to rember what player has committed how many fouls. Try this next season. After your partner calls a foul, and has reported it and then grants a time out walk up to them after 45 seconds of the timeout has exspired and ask them who the shooter is. Surprising how many forget who it was when the players leave the court!!!! NEVER TRUST THE SCOREBOARD on what the score is or the foul situation. This advice was given to me by my mentor and others at a camp in Washington state. The only true way is to ask the scorekeeper. By the way is your name Jim? and have you ever attended a camp located in British Columbia, Canada? I met a Jim Rutledge a few years ago and was kind of curious. Keep smiling
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 08:59pm
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quote: Thanks Micks Up here in the great white north i've only had the opportunity to ref NCAA rules and only had the opportunity to ref NF when i cross the line into Wahington State. Our provincial educator who works NCAA Division one ball is slowing adapting some of the better mechanics.(IHMO)Less confrontation that calling of a foul is better the game will flow again(IMHO) Keep smiling. SH
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Wed Aug 30, 2000, 10:47pm
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quote: There's not doubt that the mechanics manual states exactly what you quoted. But the better officials are bird dogging less and less. I went to a camp, a HS camp not a college camp, this summer and we were encouraged not to bird dog.
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Thu Aug 31, 2000, 01:12am
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quote: I am not Jim Rutledge BTW. But let me make something clear, I do not say that you could not get help on the shooter, but I would not make it a practice. Because if it is a off ball you might not see or realize what your partner called, so that is why I say that you do not rely on your partner. In 3 person, it is not uncommon that (if you are truly officiating your area) the non calling official would have a clue what you called. Sure they should be told who has the ball, but they might not know who the foul was on or who will benefit from the call. And finally, you are correct, never trust the scoreboard, but if it is wrong that is what everyone is going to go by, so you better be aware if it is correct or not. It is not different from time or the score, if you have definite knowledge that it is wrong, you better have it corrected. Not very different from the possession arrow.
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Thu Aug 31, 2000, 01:40am
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quote: I think that we both can agree that as long as the team of officials on the court can get the correct shooter and manage the game effectively that's what counts. I don't think either of us is wrong, it's just a different way of approach the same situation. Scoreclock wise i never trust it. What ever is written is what we go with. Every coach know that the book is official and that the clock is just a way to inform people of the game situation. Take care, have a great season. Best of luck!
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Thu Aug 31, 2000, 01:54pm
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quote: All that I am really saying is that I do not rely on my partner to get me a shooter, if I called a foul. I will tell them who the shooter is myself and tell them what we are going to do. And as a partner, I tell the calling officials, do not automatically expect me to know what you called, tell me who the shooter is, because in off ball fouls, I might not have a clue what he/she called. So help me out and tell me (especially if we are going to the other end of the court). As for the scoreboard, it does not matter what the actual scoreboard says. It only officially matters what the scorebook says. But as a guide (if fouls numbers are listed) I try to look after every foul if I can to make sure that what I believe to be the count of fouls to be the same in my head. If a team has 6 or 9 fouls, it will help in knowing if the next foul that I call against them, we will be shooting or not. I try to signal if we are in bonus immediatly rather than rely solely on the scorekeeper. Does not mean that there are never problems, but that all depends on the experience and awareness of the scorekeeper and offical scorer. This practice just keeps my head in the game and if there are problems, I might be able to help my partner, because foul and score problems are usually started by what is on the scoreboard first. Coaches and fans do not ask what is wrong with the scorebook, they ask what is on the scoreboard. I am not saying you are wrong, this is just what I have been taught and works for you. Some guys use a whistle in their pocket to help with AP issues, but that does not work for me, it just confuses me and makes things complicated.
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