Saw this the other night. Made basket, A1 starts to inbound against the press. A2 jumps behind the baseline while A1 passes to A2. But A2 misses the pass and the ball rolls out beyond the plane of the sideline but remained behind the baseline. A2 didn't recover the ball before a five-second violation was called.

It got me thinking (dangerous, I know)... If A2 recovered the ball beyond the sideline boundary extended but got back behind the baseline in time to inbound it, would there have been a violation?

Phil

We've had this discussion before, and quite recently, if memory serves me (it always serves me - but sometimes it's someone else's memory).

I don't think we ever came to a conclusion on whether the OOB area on the endline extended beyond the sidelines extended or not.

Maybe since then, someone has found a definitive rule on it.

I go on the premise that the plane has no finite measurement until it hits the bleachers or walls.

Actually, that's kinda like my strike zone. Nose to toes, dugout to dugout.

By definition the basketball court's boundaries are the two sidelines and the two endlines. A sideline ends where it intersects with an endline and an endline ends where it intersects with a sideline. When a team is entitled to a throw-in after a succesful or awarded field goal or free throw, the ensuing throw-in must be made from behind the endline.

NFHS R7-S5-A7 deals with throw-ins for the above situation. NFHS R7-S6-A1 states that the thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in R7-S5-A7, within five seconds after the throw-in starts. Directly into the court means that the ball must cross over the boundary line from which that throw-in is being made.

When A1's pass to A2 went past the intersection point of the sideline and the endline, the pass touched out-of-bounds without crossing direct directly into the court. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation. I do not have my NCAA and FIBA rules books in front of me but the ruling would be the same for both NCAA and FIBA rules also.

Phil,
In lieu of a real rule, I am prepared to judge the last plane penetrated before the ball enters the court.

That is, if the ball is outside the intersection of the planes a ball that crosses the end line plane last is still an end line throw-in.
Likewise, a ball that passes through the sideline plane last would have been an illegal throw-in.
mick

This seems to be a nit-picky view of "directly onto the court." What if, for example, we have a spot throw-in on the baseline about 1 foot from the corner? A1, while attempting to throwing around B1, moves in such a way as to throw the ball across the sideline plane. Doesn't seem like a violation to me.
Can't think of a good reason to call anything but a 5 second voilation here, if it gets that far.

Adam

One more thought, in the absence of a clearly defined violation, I'd be real hesitant to call one. Anything besides "5 seconds" seems far short of being clearly defined here.

Adam

Ladies and Gentlemen: PLEASE!! READ THE RULES BOOK!!

I will only reference the NFHS rules, but the NCAA Men’s/Women’s and FIBA rules books agree.


R1-S2-A1: The playing court shall be marked with sidelines, end lines and other lines as shown on the appended court diagram.

R4-S41-A1: The thrower is that player who attempts to make a throw-in.

R4-S41-A2: A throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds.

R4-S41-A5: The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches, or is touched by, an inbounds player other that the thrower.

R7-S5-A7: After a goal or awarded goal as in R7-S4-A3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from any point outside the end line. ….. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line.

R7-S6-A1: The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in. The thrower shall release the ball on a pass directly into the court, except as in R7-S5-A7, within five seconds after the throw-in start. The throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. The throw-in pass shall not touch a teammate while it is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary plane.


As I stated in my first post in this thread. The end line ends where it intersects with the sideline and the sideline ends where it intersects with the end line.

Lets look at this play from a new perspective. Instead A1, instead of passing the ball to A2, who is also out-of-bounds behind the end line, A1 runs along the end line until he comes to the point where it intersects with the sideline. A1 then starts to run along the sideline toward his basket and then releases a pass to A3 who is standing inbounds. Has A1 committed a throw-in violation? Of course he has committed a throw-in violation. A1 did not make the throw-in from behind the end line.

Therefore, when A1 legally passed the ball to A2 (who is legally out of bounds), who missed the pass, the ball continued past the point where the end line and sideline intersect while still on the out of bound side of the boundary lines, A1 has committed a throw-in violation because A1’s throw-in pass did not touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched.

His Highness has spoken!
 

...even though this play is not specifically addressed in the Rule Book or the Case Book. his interp is a reach, to say the least. But perhaps that's the way it's called in Ohio. A regional thang, ya know!

I got nothin', unless the ball hits something.

Re: His Highness has spoken!
 

Since when is applying the rules correctly a "reach?" I used the rules as written to make an interpretation. I agree that the Casebook does not have a play addressing this play specifically, but just apply the rules that are written about throw-ins.

Not to be "nit-picky, but lets look at what Snagwells wrote earlier:

"This seems to be a nit-picky view of "directly onto the court." What if, for example, we have a spot throw-in on the baseline about 1 foot from the corner? A1, while attempting to throwing around B1, moves in such a way as to throw the ball across the sideline plane. Doesn't seem like a violation to me.
Can't think of a good reason to call anything but a 5 second voilation here, if it gets that far."

In Snagwells throw-in scenario above, A1 has committed a throw-in violation by stepping up the sideline. A1's throw-in spot is on the end line and he released the ball from a position along the sideline. The designated spot for A1's throw-in was on the end line and the throw-in was made from a position on the sideline.

I am sorry to offend those who do not use the rules book when making an interpretation, but I was taught to use the rules book (including casebook plays, illustrated rules books, officials handbook, and the basketball handbook) to make my ruling.

Just yankin' your chain, Mark.
 

We beat this one to death on the NFHS board. Bottom line, there is no definitive asnwer. We can all offer our own interp. but, truth be known, there is no NFHS interp.

I agree that we beat this one to death in the NFHS Discussion Forum. That said, I have supplied all of the rules references that apply to throw-ins, in general, and the specific throw-in situation in this thread. These rules references are the same ones that I referenced in NFHS Discussion Forum.

Just apply the appropriate rules and this play is not a difficult play to officiate.

Yep, and they didn't stand up their either! ;)

Re: Re: His Highness has spoken!
 

Just a point of clarification, it's SNAQWELLS. I understand it's tough to tell in various fonts, but wanted to set the record straight.
Now, in my scenario, the player need not step anywhere. It's a throw in spot within about 18 inches of the corner. Technically, he's released the ball from a spot outside the corner. His hand is, by your definition, outside the playing court; yet his feet are still within the 3 foot spot for the throw-in.
I'm looking at the rules you're giving, here, Mark. I see what you're saying. I just disagree. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring the rule book. I'm not going to call a violation unless there's a clear rule defining it. If you want me to call it (I know you don't care how I officiate, I'm just making a point), get the rule cleared up. Until then....

Adam

MTD,
I have a problem with your definition of a throw-in pass. I do not consider the OOB pass from A1 to A2 that subsequently gets away past the sideline to be a throw-in pass. Therefore, this pass is not subject to the restrictions set forth in the throw-in rules. Specifically, the provision about having to go directly into the court does not apply to this pass.
Likewise, if we are playing in a gym with lots of room between the endline and the back wall, if A1 tried to pass the ball to A2 who was standing several feet behind A1 and the pass was missed and never touched, I do not believe that this is a violation either. Team A still has whatever time remains of the five seconds to run down the ball and release it on a throw-in pass directly into the court.
Now I do agree with your statements on where the sidelines and the endlines end. I just think that even if the ball passes the plane of the sideline while OOB the throw-in team may still retreive it and complete a throw-in pass before the five seconds expire.
I believe that we must precisely state what we consider to be BEHIND the endline, in order to discuss this play further.

Well, thanks for clearing that up.... (ahem)

I guess I'll go to practice tonight and tell my kids that if they ever miss a pass behind the baseline, they'll be running lines until they can't suffer anymore. It seems so much simpler....

Sheesh!!!

[Edited by PGCougar on Mar 3rd, 2003 at 05:30 PM]

Lets look at your two plays separately. In both plays NFHS R7-S5-A7 allows for as few as one player and as many as five players from Team A to be on the out-of-bounds side of the end line at the same time during the throw-in. R7-S5-A7 also allows the players from Team A to pass the ball among themselves, but Team A is still subject R7-S6-A1. Behind the end line means just that. The end line ends where intersects with the sideline and the sideline ends where it intersects with the end line. For the sake of this argument lets confine Team A to only two players on the out-of-bounds side of the end line during the throw-in.

Play #1: A1 passes the ball to A2: a) The ball goes past A2, who never touches the ball, and the ball continues along the out-of-bounds side of the end line and goes past the intersection point of the sideline and the end line. Or b) A2 fumbles the pass, and the ball continues out-of-bounds and goes past the plane of the sideline. In both (a) and (b) Team A did not meet the requirements of R7-S6-A1 that require the ball to be passed directly onto the court such that it shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation.

Play #2: A1 passes the ball to A2: a) The ball goes past A2, who never touches the ball, and the ball strikes the wall behind the end line. Or b) A2 fumbles the pass, and the ball strikes the ball behind the end line. In both (a) and (b) Team A did not meet the requirements of R7-S6-A1 that require the ball to be passed directly onto the court such that it shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. Therefore Team A has committed a throw-in violation.

I agree with Mark
 

In absence of other more specific rules covering this sitch, I have to agree with the violation as Mark is calling it. Otherwise, at what point is it out of play? What if the gym doors are open and it flies out into the hall? You gonna stand there and count five will A2 chases the ball down past the concession stand?

As long as he returns to this designated area to make the actual throw in, I see nothing in this rule that says he can't go out and run around the block in the meantime.
If this were part of some elaborate scheme that I can't even imagine it would be one thing. But in a case like this where a bad pass causes the ball to go astray, or if a player jumps out to make a quick pass downcourt and fumbles the ball into a "dead zone" in the corner, if the 5 second count allows enough time for a recovery and a return to the legal area for the release of the throw-in, as far as I can see, this is a legal play.

Re: I agree with Mark
 

I think you got it. Let the 5 second count take care of it.

MTD,
I am not challenging your logic, I am disputing your application of 7-6-1 to this situation. To quote from that rule, "The throw-in pass shall touch another player (inbounds or out of bounds) on the court before going out of bounds untouched. The throw-in pass shall not touch a teammate while it is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary plane."
Now add "Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line." from 7-5-7.
My stance is that in both plays you discuss above, Team A is not making a throw-in pass. They are making a pass amongst teammates on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary. Since this pass was never intended to go into the court, it doesn't qualify as a throw-in pass, and thus is not subject to the provisions of such a pass.
As conclusive proof that this is not a throw-in pass: (1) realize that when teammates pass the ball OOB along the endline the throw-in count does not stop. However, "the throw-in count ends when the ball is released by the thrower so the passed ball goes directly into the court." 4-41-4 and (2) the second sentence that I quoted above from 7-6-1 says that a teammate may not touch a throw-in pass while it is on the OOB side of the throw-in plane, but this is just what is done and is permitted with this pass. Both of these show that this pass cannot qualify as a throw-in pass.
So to sum up, this pass is not a throw-in pass and thus it does not have to go directly into the court and Team A cannot be penalized if it doesn't. Team A has until the full five seconds expires to execute a throw-in pass.

Not clearly defined.
 

At the end of the day, this is not something that I have ever seen and I am sure many have never seen this or never will. It seems to be a debate over what has taken place and that will never get resolved. So just make a ruling, be as consistent as you can and give an explaination you see fit. If we cannot resolve it here, you think it is going to be resolved if we take appropriate action on the court?

Peace

I do not have my rules books in front of me but let me forge ahead anyway.

By definition, all throw-ins are designated spot throw-ins and the team making the throw-in is allowed to only have the thrower on the out-of-bounds side of the boundary line where the throw-in is being made; no other players from the team making the throw-in are allowed to be out-of-bounds along the boudary line where the throw-in is being made. The designated spot is three feet wide and is as deep as a wall behind the player. (That means an official should not let a player run backwards thru and open door along the wall while making the throw-in, that is not the intent of the rule.)

BUT, there is one exception to this definition. When the throw-in is the result of a team making a field goal or free throw or for being awarded points, such as for basket interference or goaltending. The exception allows the thrower to move along the end line and for the entire team to be on the out-of-bounds side of the end line during the throw-in. I am going to hate myself for saying this but think of the thrower's teammates who are out-of-bounds with along the end line as a clone of the thrower. Or when A1 and A2 are both on the out-of-bounds side of the endline, they are to be treated as one player and the end line from sideline to sideline is to be treated as the designated spot. If one looks at the type of throw-in that has been discussed in this thread as I have described it in the previous sentence, it is easy to apply the rules to the throw-in.

Mark,you're confusing the hell out of everybody:
1)All throw-ins aren't designated spot throw-ins.Only the one where the official actually establishes the spot by putting the ball at the player's disposal is.
2)the designated spot is specifically defined as being 3 feet wide with no depth limitations-NOT sideline to sideline.

All of that is in the rules definition of a throw-in- R4-41-6.You can't change the specific wording of the definition just to meet your premise of how the play should be called.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 5th, 2003 at 12:08 PM]

He's not confusing me at all, JR. I stopped reading this thread after mick's first post: "nose to toes, dugout to dugout". Crystal clear to me. :D

Chuck

Hey, by the way, your new pitcher -- Contreras -- didn't look so hot yesterday. Sox knocked him around pretty good. Boston's pen looks horrible -- again! -- but what's the scuttlebutt about Contreras?

Chuck

The only scuttlebutt that I heard of was in the NY Post this AM.Joe Torre said he's thinking too much and trying to be perfect.There was some speculation about starting him off in Triple A,too.Just the usual spring training b.s.,is all.Someone looking to sell papers.Hell,it's too early to even seriously start making fun of the BoSox!:D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
[B]Ladies and Gentlemen: PLEASE!! READ THE RULES BOOK!!


R7-S5-A7: After a goal or awarded goal as in R7-S4-A3, the team not credited with the score shall make the throw-in from the end of the court where the goal was made and from ANY POINT OUTSIDE THE ENDLINE. ….. Any player of the team may make a direct throw-in or he/she may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary line.

Hmmm...any point outside the endline...don't see nothing about intersections with sidelines or anything else...hmmm...seems pretty simple to me...

And just so Chuck doesn't feel too bad, I work with a guy who - believe it or not - is a KANSAS CITY FAN!!! He says he's hoping for 70 wins this season...and I thought being a BoSox fan was tough!!

Having read this whole post I will ask a variation and also provide my insight.

??? What would we do if we are administering a spot throwin and the thrower looses (fumbles the ball) and it does not roll on to the court?? Is it a violation or does the 5 count continue allowing that player to recover the ball and returns to the throwin spot to complete the throwin.

On the above variation, once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower I would allow them to make the throwin anywhere between the intersection of the sidelines. If they would fumble the ball putside of the sidelines extended, I would allow them to return inside but call a violation if the throw came from outside the sideline extended. My thinking is this, this could create an advantage for the thrower as the defense is very unlikely to follow the thrower to defend the throwin. I would apply this only to a fumble by a single throwin player, not a pass to another OOB. If the pass is fumbled missed by the other OOB teammate, I would allow only that teammate to recover the ball beyond the sideline and return it themself to between the sidelines extended otherwise we would have a violation as an advantage could be gained. I don't have rule books to back them with (am working on the spring season now) but this is my two sense....:D

On the spot throw in, as long as the player doesn't leave the three foot spot, I'm okay with it. If they leave the spot to retrieve the ball? Violation. Assuming, of course, that they gained full control when I handed it to them. If they hand off is fumbled? Blow the whistle and start over.
On the end-line throw in, no spot, I've only got a 5 second count. Rules don't give me a clear definition of any other violation, so I have to let it pass. YMMV, obviously.
I don't care if the player throws it in from the concession stand outside the gym, as long is it goes directly to the court (no OOB bounce) and touches a player in bounds and is released within 5 seconds, I'm letting it pass. I don't even care if it hits the concession stand. Chances are, if it goes that far, I'll have "5" before they even get to it.
Five seconds isn't that long.
Adam

Adam,you should care if it hits the concession stand.That one is covered in the rules,and is a violation.See casebook play 9.2.2SitA(a).

Hey, at least the Royals have won a World Series in the last 20 years (with the help of Don Denkinger! :eek: )

Chuck

Come on JR. Read NFHS R7-S5-A7, that is the exception to the designated sport throw-in. If one treats a throw-in made under R7-S5-A7 as just a special type of designated throw-in and if there are more than member of the throwing team out-of-bounds along the end line treat all of those players as one player for purposes of the throw-in. That is the effect of R7-S5-A7.

To me, the key there is "attempts deception." The situation at hand is a "pass" from one OOB player to another OOB player that gets muffed but remains OOB. Of course the pass didn't go directly onto the court, but it's still not a violation. What if she muffs it into the bleachers (end-line bleachers) and recovers in time? How is that different from a wall?

Adam

Come on JR. Read NFHS R7-S5-A7, that is the exception to the designated sport throw-in. If one treats a throw-in made under R7-S5-A7 as just a special type of designated throw-in and if there are more than member of the throwing team out-of-bounds along the end line treat all of those players as one player for purposes of the throw-in. That is the effect of R7-S5-A7. [/B][/QUOTE]Come on Mark.Read NFHS R7-S5-A2.That is the designated spot throw-in. R7-S5-A7 is a non-designated spot throw-in.Two different animals,with some different rulings applied to each of them.

Adam,you're saying above that you ain't gonna call anything as long as the inbounds pass goes directly onto the court and touches a player in bounds.you also state that you won't allow an OOB bounce on the same throw-in.Isn't hitting anything OOB exactly the same as the OOB bounce that you say you won't allow?How is the concession stand any different than the floor?They're both OOB!

Okay. I think I need to clarify (in case my assignor is reading this).
I'm much more strict on the spot throw in. The player must stay within the three-foot spot. Once they get beyond that spot, violation, even if they're chasing a fumbled ball.
On an endline throw in, I'm far more lenient. If an OOB pass from one player to another (legal) gets muffed, fine. They've got as far back as they can physically step to get the ball in. If a bounce pass is okay between OOB players, I'm not sure I can call a violation if the ball hits the wall or bleachers (assuming a muffed pass rather than an attempt to deceive.)
Now, if the ball hits an object out of bounds (which I'll consider the same as hitting the floor OOB) and bounces onto the playing court.... Violation.
Make sense? After reading this, I'm starting to confuse me.

Adam

I've got to ask
 

Ater a made basket by A, team B takes the ball out and has two players OOB. When B1 passes to B2, both are OOB, A reaches across the verticle plane of the end line and deflects the ball. Violation on A? If yes, can B still run the baseline?

Thanks.

Re: I've got to ask
 

No and no.

It's a technical foul on A for contacting the ball on the OOB side of the throw-in plane. B will get 2 FT. B will get a possession at the division line.

Hey, how come everyone can quote rule after rule on a play that happens once in a blue moon but no one will quote me the rule on my traveling question that happens nearly every game? :)

Huh
 

What are you talking about? What's the question, if there is one. ;)
mick

Re: Huh
 

Found 'er,mick. Went back and answered it. Better late than never,I guess.

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/whiterab.gif

I don't want to mix threads by asking it again here, but I posted it a couple days ago. The subject is "Traveling?" and its the only thread started by LONGSHOT.

Basically it has to do with loss of ball control when a player is in the air. I would like clarification on when its OK to leave the floor with the ball and return to the floor with the ball.

Geeze,Longshot,I answered that one 17 minutes ago.

Gimme a break. I'm old,slow,and not too bright.

But you are da man JR. Thanks.