What if...
 

After a held ball A5 throws an elbow at B5 but misses.
B5 immediately jumps in A5s face.

Dead ball double T.

Had B5 punched A5 instead, could we go double flagrant Ts as A5s initial unsporting act lead to the punch?

A5 and B5 are both gone.

4-18 Fighting
Art. 2 ... An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

Tossing a deliberate elbow is an attempt to instigate a fight IMO which would cause a normal person to retaliate by fighting.

Ok, thats what I thought, whether the elbow connects or not is immaterial.

I feel like I should clarify...that if it's a deliberately thrown elbow, the player would be tossed anyhow...just like a thrown and missed punch. If a player throws an elbow that's unsporting but not to the level of getting tossed, and a player retaliates by fighting, then you'd toss both of them.

I would say toss the player for the elbow (attempt) if it is judged to be deliberate. I would give the other player a technical foul.

This is my opinion without seeing the actual play and it could change depending on how severe "getting in the face" actually is.

Yeah, I did not see the play either. Discussion with a buddy...

An elbow swing at the head, bye bye. A "get off me b1tch" elbow swung in the general direction, double T. Anything in between, the dreaded J word comes into play.

Agree w/ Snaq on this one. Unfortunately when our judgement comes into play, the greater the reaction of the offended to the initial play, the greater the penalty for both.

I pose this question to spark debate - I wasn't there so I cannot say what I would do for sure.

Do you think a double technical foul is the path of least resistance and we would like to go there when we shouldn't because they would offset?

Not sure I understand the question. I think it's wholly appropriate to go double when the second player retaliates. The hole is in the rules.

Are you saying a missed elbow and the other player getting up in the other player's face are equal and warrant a penalty that becomes administrative (double technicals) for the most part?

I still may not be clear, but I'm not sure if the two things warrant a double T. If two players are going at each other a square off, Charlie Range used to always say, "If you go in to get in between two players come out with a double technical". I'm not sure that applies to a missed elbow and then they square off. Again, seeing the play matters.

I'm saying both acts, individually, deserve technical fouls. The rules dictate a double foul at that point. I agree they're not equal, but the rules are the same. I dont think it's particularly "fair" but the same is true for those two fouls if they were committed an hour apart. How would you propose addressing it? Toss the elbow thrower and a standard T for the one who reacts verbally?

Unless I'm missing something, yes. Using your example, if those things happen an hour apart, wouldn't you toss one player and give the other a T? I could be missing something; my brain is pretty fried right now.

Hyperbole ...
 

Your brain is fried? Here in my little corner of Connecticut, it's 147 °F in the shade.

I don't know. I was thinking of a regular T on the elbow. No reason you couldn't toss the elbow and T the talker if you think the elbow deserves the pine.

Does a deliberate elbow swing always constitute being tossed? Without contact is it not just an Unsporting T and then the following in the face trash is also unsporting T.

I am just throwing that out for more discussion. I do think that should the elbow have any contact then it's a Toss situation.

Whether you toss here doesn't typically depend on whether contact is made. Normally, if you'd toss with contact you'd toss if the elbow misses.

Is this opinion or is there rules reference for this train of thought? I would reference rules citation if I had HFHS or NCAA books but unfortunately they have gone to the trash since we switched to FIBA up here.

Just going by memory here, but I thought there was something about excessively swinging the elbows consituted an Unsporting T and Contact was a flagrant foul. *unsure*

There's a difference between "excessively swinging" the elbows and "swinging at" another player.

Excessively swinging the elbows is a violation (although it could be deemed "unsporting.") and making contact is still a judgment call in HS. You might be thinking of the recent NCAA directive for which there is no NFHS equivalent. Even then it's more about contact with the head.

Why "swing" an elbow at someone?
- To hurt someone/make a point deliberately, plain and simple. Doing so in my thinking is a fight. Whether contact is made or not.

Same as shooting at someone and missing. What is the shooter trying to do?? Kill someone!! They just happened to miss.

A common "nudge"?
- Regular T