Debunking the "over the back" myth

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
...last week, as my partner was walking to report a foul, a kid said to me, "It's about time you called the over-the-back." I said, "Did you know that over-the-back is not a foul?" The gym went dead silent just in time for God and everyone to hear my partner report, "White, 32, over-the-back"

AAAUUUGGGHHHHH!!!!

Hey, even God needs a good laugh every now & then!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hey, even God needs a good laugh every now & then!

I know. I sent Him to one of your games.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I know. I sent Him to one of your games.

Yeah, I saw Him there! He was sitting in the fourth row of the bleachers screaming "Call the 3 seconds already!!!!"

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

Yeah, I saw Him there! He was sitting in the fourth row of the bleachers screaming "Call the 3 seconds already!!!!"
[/B][/QUOTE]Did you get the AD to get Him out of there?
Game called on account of

[just another ref]

This will probably not be a popular post with the masses.
I get almost as tired of officials criticizing the phrase
"over the back" as I do coaches using it. Don't we all know what it is the coach is yelling for when he yells
"over the back" or "reaching in" or whatever? Would it be any more tolerable if tomorrow they all changed to:
"Hey, Mr. Ref, 22 pushed my player who had established good inside position." "C'mon, Ref, he hacked my player in the act of shooting." "Oh, dear God, Ref! I know you saw A1
when he illegally extended his arm. Surely if there is any justice in this world, that should be a player control foul."

Kinda makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck just thinking about it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by just another ref
This will probably not be a popular post with the masses.
I get almost as tired of officials criticizing the phrase
"over the back" as I do coaches using it. Don't we all know what it is the coach is yelling for when he yells
"over the back" or "reaching in" or whatever?

Well,Justa,I've been told before that I'm usually one "m" short of a "mass",but I'm gonna answer this one anyway.

Officials tend to use the terminology that's also used in the rulebook because it tends to reinforce the (oft mistaken) idea that we're the only ones in the building that really knows and understands what we're doing.It's like being part of a Secret Society,where we each get a decoder ring along with our rulebooks-and nobody else in the gym gets to have one.It's also the exact same reason that we try to use standardized mechanics,too.In other words,it's got a lot to do with the concept that every official should know exactly what every other official is doing by just simply observing them.The saddest part is that,if you happen to be a young official,and there's an evaluator in the crowd when you're calling the "reaches" and "over-the-backs",you might end up doing JV games at Podunk H.S. for the rest of your officiating career.It might also make the difference between you and another official,when they're trying to decide who to send to the next round of the State play-offs.You could be equal in ability,but the other guy/girl is gonna go every time.You might not like that either,but it's a fact of life. JMHO.

[oatmealqueen]

Originally posted by just another ref
This will probably not be a popular post with the masses.
I get almost as tired of officials criticizing the phrase
"over the back" as I do coaches using it. Don't we all know what it is the coach is yelling for when he yells
"over the back" or "reaching in" or whatever? Would it be any more tolerable if tomorrow they all changed to:
"Hey, Mr. Ref, 22 pushed my player who had established good inside position." "C'mon, Ref, he hacked my player in the act of shooting." "Oh, dear God, Ref! I know you saw A1
when he illegally extended his arm. Surely if there is any justice in this world, that should be a player control foul."

Kinda makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck just thinking about it.

Mechanics and terminology are an officials best tool of communication, so it is important that we all try to stay "on the same page".
IMHO, officials that use incorrect signals (visual & verbal) cause hardships for everyone, and these signals are some of the only things that we truely have direct control over in every game. My 2 cents.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by just another ref
This will probably not be a popular post with the masses.
I get almost as tired of officials criticizing the phrase
"over the back" as I do coaches using it. Don't we all know what it is the coach is yelling for when he yells
"over the back" or "reaching in" or whatever?

But jar, that's not the problem. The problem is that coaches yell "Over the back!" whenever the player behind reaches of his opponent's head, makes no contact, or there's contact within the vertical plane, and gets the rebound. They don't understand the rules. I can live with a coach screaming it when there's illegal contact but the point of the "There's no such thing as over the back," is that coaches want it called anytime the player from behind rebounds, contact or not.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Ron
Better yet, after reporting the colour and player who committed the foul, give the "push" signal, but don't say anything while you do it.

Hi there.

Is Deb Shephard (sp?) still reffin in Chatham-Kent?

Just wondering...

Mike

[Dan_ref]

...how did you happen to stummble across THIS site?

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com



BTW, nice gif

[just another ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

But jar, that's not the problem. The problem is that coaches yell "Over the back!" whenever the player behind reaches of his opponent's head, makes no contact, or there's contact within the vertical plane, and gets the rebound. They don't understand the rules. [/B]

I think that's the point I was trying to make. What they yell is not the problem. Is it really a problem at all?
They also yell "Travel!" when neither foot moved. They yell
"Ten seconds!" when the actual count is at seven. Right words, wrong call, thanks anyway, coach. Some don't understand the rules. Some think if they yell for everything you will give them something. Many, I think, are just so overwhelmed by their intensity and desire to win the game that their perception of a play and the resulting call (or no call) is warped beyond belief. The truth is that push often does not describe the contact which results when the outside player commits a foul while trying to rebound. I am certainly not suggesting that officials change their signals or terminology to pacify any coach, I am merely saying that when you hear "Over the back" you treat it the same way you do when the coach calls time out after the other team's made basket and wants to know if he gets the ball at midcourt.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
...how did you happen to stummble across THIS site?

http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com

Obviously,by the name,it's my homepage!

Thought I'd post that before someone else(coughChuckcough)did.Actually,I just plugged "animated gifs" into Google,if I remember right.Small thing....etc.,etc.,etc.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by just another ref

I think that's the point I was trying to make. What they yell is not the problem. Is it really a problem at all?
They also yell "Travel!" when neither foot moved. They yell
"Ten seconds!" when the actual count is at seven. Right words, wrong call, thanks anyway, coach. Some don't understand the rules. Some think if they yell for everything you will give them something. Many, I think, are just so overwhelmed by their intensity and desire to win the game that their perception of a play and the resulting call (or no call) is warped beyond belief. The truth is that push often does not describe the contact which results when the outside player commits a foul while trying to rebound. I am certainly not suggesting that officials change their signals or terminology to pacify any coach, I am merely saying that when you hear "Over the back" you treat it the same way you do when the coach calls time out after the other team's made basket and wants to know if he gets the ball at midcourt. [/B]

IMHO, I still think you're missing the point, although you're certainly entitled to your opinion. The "Over the back!" nonsense is frustrating because it happens more often that any of these other plays you've cited. And, coaches can get pissed off, complaining about it constantly. That doesn't happen with the other plays you've described.

I don't remember having a coach yell traveling when a player didn't move either foot and I've never had a coach ask me to inbound the ball at the division line after a basket. As far as a 10 second count goes, I don't expect him to know where I'm at in the count. But I certainly expect him to know that you can't have a foul without contact. That's pretty simple.

[Rich]

I was at an SEC game a few years ago with a good friend who now teaches at Wake Forest.

He knew I was an official and he would ask questions every once in a while about rule differences, etc. He was knowledgable enough about the game he could've been an outstanding official had he had the desire to be one.

We were watching the game and an SEC official calls an "over-the-back" foul.

He reports and gives this signal that could only be described by my friend and myself as "the creeping death foul."

The official put two hands over his head, curled forward, and took a few steps forward and lifted his arms up and over an imaginary player. The creeping death foul.

We still mention it to each other when we talk and laugh about it even though it had to have happened 5-7 years ago.

I saw it again during a D-I women's game this season. I almost blew Pepsi through my nose.

Rich

Edited to add: To respond to JAR -- I have no problem with the phrase "over the back" or "reaching in." The problem I have is that had there been contact that caused a disadvantage, I would've called it. Some coaches seem to automatically think that the inside player has a righ tto the rebound. Of course if the player behind is able to go over without contact, there's no call. But the "over-the-back" screamers don't usually see it that way.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Feb 15th, 2003 at 10:07 AM]

[just another ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
The "Over the back!" nonsense is frustrating because it happens more often that any of these other plays you've cited.

I agree that it does happen often, because there are a lot of missed shots, there is a lot of blocking out, a lot of player without position jumping and trying to rebound anyway. This leads to coaches yelling for fouls, some pleas have merit, many certainly do not. It just so happens
that the phrase they use in this case is "over the back."
I am just saying that I fail to see the big deal in the language. If they just yelled "That's a foul!" would that make it any better?

I don't remember having a coach yell traveling when a player didn't move either foot

I don't either, offhand, but I wouldn't put it past them.
That was kind of a lame example.

and I've never had a coach ask me to inbound the ball at the division line after a basket.

I've had this one several times, after a timeout. Jr. high
coaches that watch the NBA on tv.

As far as a 10 second count goes, I don't expect him to know where I'm at in the count.

Certainly not, but coaches and fans try to speed this count up all the time. I think that this is a good example that a coach will yell for a call without information to back it up. He could have been watching the clock. He could have been watching and counting the visual count, but I doubt either was the case.

But I certainly expect him to know that you can't have a foul without contact. That's pretty simple.

I think in this case they are suggesting (whining, begging)
that there was contact. Certainly when you are directly behind the 2 players involved, it can be difficult to tell if there was contact or not, especially if much distance is involved. I don't recommend this as a practice but I sometimes will hold my hands up a foot (or 3) apart to show the coach how far the player was "off the back."